Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event - Page 10 - ED Forums


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Old 09-16-2020, 05:39 PM   #91
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Little story about F14 vs F18 and prohibited full flaps in real life

Last edited by maxsin72; 09-16-2020 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:27 AM   #92
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Just a humble observation, but could we stop this petty argument about the tournament rules? Here we have a person who's done what each of us dreams about, when we are sitting in front of our monitors or with our headsets on. And he's taken enough liking to our small online gaming community to organise this opportunity.

We actually have a chance to save a life without having to pull the paddle switch in Hornet or yanking the stick to over G our Tomcats by signing up or donating and offer a chance of education to someone who's lost a loved one or have them become disabled.

Can't see things getting any realer than that.
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:23 PM   #93
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I think the main point some people are missing is that this is event is simulating a tournament, not a combat situation. Technically it's not even just simulating a tournament, it IS a tournament.
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Old 09-19-2020, 01:40 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by maxsin72 View Post
Little story about F14 vs F18 and prohibited full flaps in real life
That's interesting. He specifically says he merged at 325 with the flaps down. A full 100 knots over the max flap speed.
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:31 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Cab View Post
That's interesting. He specifically says he merged at 325 with the flaps down. A full 100 knots over the max flap speed.

I think that a pilot with more then 4800 hours on F14 in war and in peace time knows very well what he is talking about. It's this the reason i think that NATOPS graphics don't tell the truth about F14 and also 8g limit it's not realistic. Snodgrass made those Lectures at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum in July 2019 and i think nobody has the skills to say anything different, also real pilots of F16 and F18 who have less then one third of his flying hours on other planes. Other videos are coming.
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Old 09-19-2020, 07:01 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by M0ltar View Post
You said earlier that the Tomcat has no G limit, but in the actual Grumman documentation and Natops it had a G limit of 7.5. You’re basing all of your assertions on what you’ve read in books and online and continually put down input provided by real world jet pilots right here in this thread. It makes you come across as a know it all, but in reality I’m betting you have no real world experience. I just can’t wrap my head around how you can do that.

When i wrote that Tomcat has no g-limit, i mean that there is no limiter and the pilot can decide to pull till the plane breaks

Originally Posted by M0ltar View Post
Just because a pilot did something doesn’t mean it was right or should have been done, in your case your accounts about this 14 pilot. Lots of these planes can pull more than the rated G. However if you do do that bad things can happen which is exactly why it should not be done unless you are going to fly into the ground and become part of the dirt. Planes are not expendable assets. Planes are war machines used to fight. A plane that was over limited has to be taken down and serviced or even worse decommissioned to make it capable again and a plane that is down is one less plane that can be used to fight.

Snodgrass it'not a simple pilot, perhaps he is "The Pilot" for excellense of F14: pluridecorated, 26 years and more than 4800 hours (i don't know if the 3 pilots involved in the tournament all together can reach 4800 hours on a single war plane) on the Tomcat. I think nobody can match him and no other F14 pilot is called to made conference by institutions. Take a look at this:

US Navy highlights include:
One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.
First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.
12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.
Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).
Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.
Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).
12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.
Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.
Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.
Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.
Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.
7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.
Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.
Military Decorations include:
Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.
Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.
Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.
Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.
Navy Commendation Medal (3).
Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.
Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:
Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya
bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.
Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours
and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).
Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.
Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:
1. F-86 Sabre
2. Mig 15 Fagot
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Originally Posted by M0ltar View Post
So my suggestion to everyone here is to get off your high horse and listen to the guys that have done this in real life. And when I say listen to the guys that have done it in real life I mean the people that you can talk to right here and right now and not from some book. Mover, Lex, and GB have all flown in real life and still do to this day so discounting what they’re saying comes across as close minded and self absorbed.

This event is going to have G limits whether you like it or not so continued complaining about it is going to do nothing. Let’s all work towards having a good time and raising funds for an awesome charity.

So my suggestion is to listen what the most skilled F14 pilot in history say about the plane limits and listen to what he say about real life mock dogfight (F14B vs F15) during which the plane was also damaged but it was and it was normal in a match between Airforce and Navy, i call this realism because it really happened and i would like in a tournament the same realism

This about g-limits:

And this about F14B vs F15

Last edited by maxsin72; 09-19-2020 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:47 PM   #97
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Great Cause and Great event !!! Looking forward to it !! Thanks ED , Mover , Moltar and everyone else !!!
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Old 09-19-2020, 11:48 PM   #98
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There are roe, just like the real world has roe... If you want to play fine,if you don't want to play donate, the cause is awesome...

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Old 09-20-2020, 03:50 AM   #99
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Just signed up. Not expecting to win at all, why? I just had PRK and can't practice, so I'll be coming in cold. Regardless, I'll suck with confidence, lose with honor, and know I helped a good cause!
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Old 09-20-2020, 05:09 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by maxsin72 View Post
Little story about F14 vs F18 and prohibited full flaps in real life
"It isn't that i was that much a better pilot, it is that i cheated better".

I'm sorry my friend, you are lacking so much pilot culture context that many of your conclusions are derived from misconstruing information.

Everything he discribed in this video was tantamount to pulling the paddle switch in the hornet. For which his cocky young marine adversary did not do, and the 18 lost for "not cheating better" . The nuance is that it had very little to do with the raw performance and/or limitations of the aircraft involved, and everything to do with that he simply out smarted the young 18 driver. He broke natops limits resulting the 18 driver to mis judge and fly his aircraft incorrectly. His entire point was that he could trick the cocky pilot into flying poorly. To conclude that over G-ing an aircraft, pulling circuit breakers, manually sweeping the wings and dumping to bingo fuel is the norm is ridiculous. CAPT Snodgrass made a HUGE gamble that he was hoping the 18 drivers ego would deliver on, and it did. Had he done that against someone who knew better, he would have got his ass handed to him, which he also knew. It was a calculated decision with a spacific goal, and that goal was not to prove the performance of the 14 vrs the 18, it was basically "despite the performance of the hardware, ya don't know everything, kid".

Since this thread is chock full of theory crafting, an alternate and much more "realistic" scenario could easly be: Had the 18 driver been patient and flew the aircraft correctly, he would have flowen the hornets superior alpha turning inside to deny his shots (abiding by all natops limits mind you) all while letting the 14 driver beat up his own aircraft untill it performed like a tin can only exacerbating the 18s nose authority advantage, or simply wait for him to try all his AB vertical maneuvers burning down his thimble size amount of gas he dumped down to (probably one chance at most given the numbers he sighted). Hell, had the smart ass marine been able to curb his attitude, he could have easly scored a deck kill without ever having to pull the trigger when the 14 simulated flamed out from lack of gas . Then the 14 driver gets to go home and look all his maintainers in the eyes explaining why he did what he did.

You are having a hard time deducing success from what can be attributed to the performance of the aircraft, what is between the pilots ears, and when someone is intentionally risking breaking "things" to teach a much needed lesson to better his aviation legacy.
He proved his point by "cheating better"and that ego clouds your judgment. Not that the 14 was better because of some gaming easter egg that few know, or that the 18 is worse, and certainly not that risking breaking the jet was a legitimate or expected practice. To come to the last conclusion is plainly nieve.

Captain Snodgrass is a renowned pilot, i think you are doing him a disservice by misrepresenting his experience. Your "argument from authority " is used incorrectly.

You sound much like the 18 driver Sondgrass taught the lesson to.
I have no delusions that anyone will be able to convince you what has already been explained, i would simply encourage you to research the "dunning kruger effect".

Good luck.
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Last edited by Lex Talionis; 09-20-2020 at 08:55 PM.
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