How to use Dora's energy advantage over Mustang?

Of the three WWII warbirds, I'm finding the Fw 190D-9 the hardest to master. In many ways it's the easiest to fly, but in combat, I just can't seem to find a useful edge over the AI Mustang (flown at Excellent level).

The problem is that the only advantage I seem to have is climb. I'm starting a head-on fight at 6200 ft, where the Fw 190D should have a power advantage. Sure enough, using MW 50 boost I can consistently climb above the Mustang, but I can't seem to convert that into an effective attack.

I have my Dora at 290 kph (best climb) circling over the Mustang below me. The Mustang is continuously turning to stay below me. When I decide I'm ready to attack, the Dora is incredibly sluggish and shudders and stalls trying to bring the nose around. I can't seem to turn to get my nose on the Mustang even coming from a high perch.

I've tried going straight up vertical, planning to chandelle or hammerhead and use the Dora's roll rate on the descent to cut across the circle. But Dora just wallows in the vertical stall, tending to spin (at least in my clumsy hands).

I've tried using my energy advantage from above the Mustang to slice down at 400 kph+ and get a high turn rate, but the Excellent AI Mustang seems to be conserving energy just fine and is able to easily outturn me.

I understand the theory of Boom & Zoom, and I'm trying to use my Dora's strengths to maneuver only in the vertical and avoid turnfighting. But I'm clearly missing something essential in turning a high slow perch into an effective attack when I have a high wing-loaded airplane that just won't turn and is mushing at <300 kph.

When you're at the top at 280-290 kph and a Mustang is 500-1000 ft below but turning hard to stay beneath, how do you convert that into an effective attack that gets guns on target?!

P.S. I know that theoretically the Dora has another advantage in superior SL speed, but I tried that one out and ended up a bullet riddled hulk. I was trying to escape a turnfight that was beginning to go against me, so did the Fw Split-S and dive to SL, thinking I'd outrun the Mustang.

Well, he followed and even with me running flat out in full MW-50 and hitting the 620 kph max speed at SL, the Mustang overtook me from behind and shot me down. As near as I can tell, it seems that the Mustang's clean design allowed it to get faster in the dive and thus have residual speed to creep up on me and shoot me down before that advantage faded away.

So right now, the only real advantages I seem to have over the Mustang are climb, acceleration and roll rate. Having a hard time converting these into consistent victories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqWPVw6vryY

As you mentioned the 190 is not great turn fighter at low speeds, keep it fast and try to avoid constant climb cycle because in that way you dont make any distance to your Opponent. All about training dont give up.

Yes the Mustang is very fast in a dive. If you want to run a shallow climb is usually better. Get some distance and then BnZ if you aren't comfortable dogfighting with the Mustang (it is possible but not easy).

As for him always turning below you, maybe try using flaps and even reducing power a bit to sharpen the turn. You gotta know when to do it though as it will obviously bleed energy.

Aircraft like the 190D-9 really should be flown in a group. A 1vs1 contest will tend to favor the aircraft that turns better, and that's about it.

But single player is a poor training ground for the kind of combat the 190D-9 excels at. The AI try to turnfight and it's every man for himself.

If you haven't tried it yet, use the takeoff flaps when you're trying to bring her around in the vertical. You also need to work your throttle so that the engine torque can help you adjust your bank when the ailerons are no longer effective.

Aircraft like the 190D-9 really should be flown in a group. A 1vs1 contest will tend to favor the aircraft that turns better, and that's about it.

 

But single player is a poor training ground for the kind of combat the 190D-9 excels at. The AI try to turnfight and it's every man for himself.

 

If you haven't tried it yet, use the takeoff flaps when you're trying to bring her around in the vertical. You also need to work your throttle so that the engine torque can help you adjust your bank when the ailerons are no longer effective.

P-51 and Fw-190 is close call for P-51 in turning Performance when you have more energy in Form altitude or Speed you can simpley outurn a P-51 when you doing this right. And the substain Turn Performance is different at the Speed range, FW-190 is turning like a brick under 300 Km/h where the Mustang easy outurn you.

But Wingman is allways nice you can do this all day long also with the K4 with drag and your wingman is shooting.

But when you got sperated from your wingman what is happen in DCS and you facing a Bandit where you don't able to run away?

P-51 and Fw-190 is close call for P-51 in turning Performance when you have more energy in Form altitude or Speed you can simpley outurn a P-51 when you doing this right.

...if you have more energy.;)

First, sorry for taking so long to respond to the comments here. I had an life emergency that took me away from simming for a number of weeks. All's settled down now and I can return to flying again.

OK, the simplest answer seems to be gavagai's advice: that it's near impossible to win 1-v-1 against an Excellent AI fighter if it can turn better. That the Fw 190D-9 is really only effective against an alert and aware Mustang -D if it can get the bounce on it, or work in pairs for B-n-Z.

MAD-MM and DF are recommending that I get high, then use that energy advantage to outturn the Mustang. I understand the theory, but I can't seem to make it happen in practice. I come arcing down and keep my energy high (>300 kph) and try to do a sustained turn to get behind the Mustang, hoping that it will be low on energy from trying to follow me up and unable to maintain the same turn rate.

Yet every time, the Mustang easily outurns me as I come down (even when I use flaps), then I find myself co-equal in energy (due to how the Dora bleeds energy) and having to MW-50 climb again to get back to safety before the Mustang can get guns on me.

If I dive through to escape, I have an initial acceleration advantage, but then the Mustang catches me in a longer dive. If I scissor trying to use the superior roll rate to shake the Mustang, it's slower to follow through the rolls, but then quickly catches up in the turn, making it impossible to escape. At best, I can just roll rapidly with short pulls to make a difficult gun solution, but there's no way to actually shake the AI Mustang.

Frustrating.

I guess the basic question here is about Boom-and-Zoom tactics with a fighter that has inferior wing loading. I can get the Dora up high (theoretical energy advantage), but then the poor low-speed performance and inferior wing-loading mean that the nose is very slow to turn. If I slice low and build up energy to 300-400 kph, I still can't catch the Mustang because it can outturn me even at my best speed.

I understand the idea of High Yo-Yos, Low Yo-Yos, etc. but is there any way for a fighter with superior energy but inferior turn to catch a fighter below if the enemy knows you're there and can turn to avoid the B-n-Z attack run?

BTW - I'm particularly surprised at how the Dora handles in DCS, given that most historians believe it was the best prop fighter produced by the Luftwaffe in WWII. This is not my impression at all, since the Bf 109K-4 is an absolute monster in DCS. I can easily defeat Excellent AI Mustangs using the Messerschmitt. In the Kurfurst, I have the power to outclimb the Mustang, saddle up high, then arc in and use superior wing loading to get in behind for a close-range kill. The only thing that's harder in the K-4 is getting the kill with the fewest rounds, since the on-board ammunition load is so tiny.

I mean you can easy shoot down the AI K4 with a Spit that's not a Art....

The most successful WW2 Fighters are build on Speed, WW2 was not a dogfight, more where is able to see the enemy it the Sky at first attack with altitude advantage and Disengage.

This case 190 have the Edge great high speed Handling low Stick Forces and incredible fast that's why is highly rated.

When you look MP as example don't how often Fly there, FW-190 and P-51 getting serious Pain recently, because they got you on guard in dogfight where you slow and build up big target in a Turn.

They B&Z you can never reach them especially they fly together with a wingman constant Pressure from above.

But the Problem you come often a Situation across, where you possible Split from your Wingman, in the most cases your right full Power with 190 and Run away.

For me personal didn't want to always run away and search the fight to getting better for situations where you don't can avoid it.

Don't know what PC Hardware you use, I Fly DCS with FFB stick because the you can fly the Plane on the Edge not overstress it.

Pulling to much produce incredible Drag especially for the FW-190 with his small wings, to less the P-51 outturn you again.

In Co Energy state you are able to follow a Mustang on his Six with Flaps deployed, but your not able to pull lead, so for you have to be faster to compensate this or have an eye when is time to break the turn fight to runway or build altitude again.

But overall would avoid Turn fights, because Human Player use also the Flaps on the Mustang.

AI cheats like a bastard. your best bet is not to fly against the AI.

it will just do a lowspeed circle forever with no engine cooling problems and take 5000% of the bullets it should be able to take.

if you have a superior climb rate / level speed you may want to try just disengaging / re-engaging and do nose-on passes (which you can win due to superior armament) but it's not really a strategy i'd employ, being pretty dangerous. but that might be all you are left with due to how busted the AI is.

try a spit -s, roll inverted and dive on him

Aircraft like the 190D-9 really should be flown in a group. A 1vs1 contest will tend to favor the aircraft that turns better, and that's about it.

 

But single player is a poor training ground for the kind of combat the 190D-9 excels at. The AI try to turnfight and it's every man for himself.

 

If you haven't tried it yet, use the takeoff flaps when you're trying to bring her around in the vertical. You also need to work your throttle so that the engine torque can help you adjust your bank when the ailerons are no longer effective.

1v1 is going to favor the aircraft that turns better? No offense, but that sounds like beginner thinking. Things are going to favor the one with a better energy advantage and the one that maintains that energy. If you get yourself into a turn fight in a plane that should be using BnZ, you need to go back and train. The only way your logic is going to work is if the other guy isn't smart enough to stay out of the turn fight. Other than getting a lucky shot, the guy that is BnZ'ing the turn fighter is going to win.

1v1 is going to favor the aircraft that turns better? No offense, but that sounds like beginner thinking. Things are going to favor the one with a better energy advantage and the one that maintains that energy. If you get yourself into a turn fight in a plane that should be using BnZ, you need to go back and train. The only way your logic is going to work is if the other guy isn't smart enough to stay out of the turn fight. Other than getting a lucky shot, the guy that is BnZ'ing the turn fighter is going to win.

You know, in 1v1 duels you start in front of each other with similar speed and altitude and cannot turn away for longer than 20sec or you will get disqualified ;)

But if it is a combat environment you have that option of running if you are faster. But DCS's sound system screws most B&Z attacks as your "prey" hears you come from 1km away.

i don't know what the AI P-51 is like but at least you should be able to gain an energy advantage by using an ascending spiral to position yourself offset, then yoyo through the plane and make snapshots. am i wrong? maybe the AI is so busted it's not possible but it probably should be. granted if the AI P-51 is anything like the 109 then it will take 500 bullets to the canopy, both radiators, the engine, the tail, and the fuselage, leaking radiator coolant, black smoke pouring from the engine and still be fine. but the theory works out. i guess.

When you look MP as example don't how often Fly there, FW-190 and P-51 getting serious Pain recently, because they got you on guard in dogfight where you slow and build up big target in a Turn.

They B&Z you can never reach them especially they fly together with a wingman constant Pressure from above.

 

But the Problem you come often a Situation across, where you possible Split from your

Pulling to much produce incredible Drag especially for the FW-190 with his small wings, to less the P-51 outturn you again.

 

In Co Energy state you are able to follow a Mustang on his Six with Flaps deployed, but your not able to pull lead, so for you have to be faster to compensate this or have an eye when is time to break the turn fight to runway or build altitude again.

But overall would avoid Turn fights, because Human Player use also the Flaps on the Mustang.

I can see how the Fw 190D-9 could be a beast if operated in pairs against a lone "turnfighter". As you say, the power of the Dora gives it the ability to dive in, take a shot and zoom back up out of reach. Having a wingman means that when the enemy gets slow (or just distracted), can BnZ from another angle. I remember reading this was how US pilots in the Pacific were trained to deal with the Zero, particularly once the Hellcat and Corsair arrived.

But it doesn't help in 1-v-1, since the AI Mustang is always tracking me and can choose to tighten turn and pull out of reach on any diving attack. Still trying to figure out if a single Dora can beat a Mustang flown with skill.

try a spit -s, roll inverted and dive on him

This makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to figure out how to use the Dora's superior roll rate to somehow even the odds.

So the idea is to get sufficient vertical separation that I can basically do a Split-S downwards, then use roll halfway down to point myself "across the circle"?

1v1 is going to favor the aircraft that turns better? No offense, but that sounds like beginner thinking. Things are going to favor the one with a better energy advantage and the one that maintains that energy. If you get yourself into a turn fight in a plane that should be using BnZ, you need to go back and train. The only way your logic is going to work is if the other guy isn't smart enough to stay out of the turn fight. Other than getting a lucky shot, the guy that is BnZ'ing the turn fighter is going to win.

I understand the overall theory of BnZ and energy conservation. I'm trying to avoid getting into a turnfight with the superior wing loading of the Mustang.

The challenge is how to convert superior energy into a killing shot against a superior turning enemy who's aware and tracking me. That's what I'm having trouble figuring out how to execute.

To be concrete:

1. I can reach a position a few thousand feet over the Mustang, but I'm at 290 kph (best climb speed), and he's below me turning continuously. Now what do I do?

2. I can't turn my nose quickly at 290 kph to cut across the circle since the Dora turns very poorly at this speed.

3. I've tried slicing low and using my energy advantage to build up speed to get the Dora turning and cut across the circle as I come down (per BnZ theory), but the Mustang just keep turning and I can't gain any significant advantage in rate of turn.

I end up shedding energy coming down, can't get my gunsights onto the Mustang, then need to do emergency climb before he can use sustained turn to get behind me.

So just looking for how BnZers turn a "high perch" into a crossing attack on a turning enemy below when it's hard getting the nose around. I like the other idea in this thread of doing a split-S and using Dora's roll to "cut the circle", but is this the only realistic chance for Dora?

i don't know what the AI P-51 is like but at least you should be able to gain an energy advantage by using an ascending spiral to position yourself offset, then yoyo through the plane and make snapshots. am i wrong? maybe the AI is so busted it's not possible but it probably should be. granted if the AI P-51 is anything like the 109 then it will take 500 bullets to the canopy, both radiators, the engine, the tail, and the fuselage, leaking radiator coolant, black smoke pouring from the engine and still be fine. but the theory works out. i guess.

Well, the one real pleasure of flying the Dora in combat is the power of the armament and the heavy warload carried. If I can get guns onto the Mustang, I've had no problems blowing it out of the air, a refreshing change from my time in the Mustang following enemies around pecking at them steadily :)

Let me bring some my experience into this discussion. I had the same question in my mind some time ago. I spent a lot of time and energy to find out what is "the silver bullet" that could resolve the question.

Unfortunately I didn't find "the silver bullet" to safely implement Dora's advantages vs AI pony (it is predictable :)). After dozens of dogfights 1 vs 1 same alt, same speed, different fuel loads excellent AI usually did brilliantly perfect job against my Dora. Usually my Dora was completely drilled by 50 cal, shot down or out of fuel or ammo or both. I remember I had only few times when I could shot it down with following tactics: after first encounter AI usualy converts it's speed into alt, you do the same with Dora as high as you can. After that you are higher and you have a chance to attack incoming AI having lower alt and low speed from above. Ideally if you hit it seriously on the second encounter. If you fail after the encounter you continue to flight away to get some speed, break the distance to AI up to 2.5-3 km and then attack again from above. Certainly after the second encounter you get back fire so it is not safe way to win.

Some time later I was told that defeating excellent pony's AI doesn't make any sense as it uses it's own flight model that makes it a perfect pilot. It differs from manned pony and obviously fighting vs that AI can help to impove your overall pilot's skill but I wouldn't say that greatly helped me to act vs real pilots. Of course you can ignore the last sentence if you pursue another goal.

Real pilots (including myself :) ) use flaps when needed, use very accurate sight to fire from long distance even if you are higher but slow (thanks to pony's ammo capasity), use alt advantage as well etc. The most important thing is all real pilots (including myself :)) make mistakes. In my opinion it is really really hard to implement Dora's advantages vs equally skilled pilot on pony in online from equal flight conditions.

Let me bring some my experience into this discussion. I had the same question in my mind some time ago. I spent a lot of time and energy to find out what is "the silver bullet" that could resolve the question.

 

Unfortunately I didn't find "the silver bullet" to safely implement Dora's advantages vs AI pony (it is predictable :)). After dozens of dogfights 1 vs 1 same alt, same speed, different fuel loads excellent AI usually did brilliantly perfect job against my Dora. Usually my Dora was completely drilled by 50 cal, shot down or out of fuel or ammo or both. I remember I had only few times when I could shot it down with following tactics: after first encounter AI usualy converts it's speed into alt, you do the same with Dora as high as you can. After that you are higher and you have a chance to attack incoming AI having lower alt and low speed from above. Ideally if you hit it seriously on the second encounter. If you fail after the encounter you continue to flight away to get some speed, break the distance to AI up to 2.5-3 km and then attack again from above. Certainly after the second encounter you get back fire so it is not safe way to win.

 

Some time later I was told that defeating excellent pony's AI doesn't make any sense as it uses it's own flight model that makes it a perfect pilot. It differs from manned pony and obviously fighting vs that AI can help to impove your overall pilot's skill but I wouldn't say that greatly helped me to act vs real pilots. Of course you can ignore the last sentence if you pursue another goal.

 

Real pilots (including myself :) ) use flaps when needed, use very accurate sight to fire from long distance even if you are higher but slow (thanks to pony's ammo capasity), use alt advantage as well etc. The most important thing is all real pilots (including myself :)) make mistakes. In my opinion it is really really hard to implement Dora's advantages vs equally skilled pilot on pony in online from equal flight conditions.

Swoop, that's a great response. Thanks for writing it up. Makes me feel better since I've been having the same experience. I don't mind losing if I'm getting better at BFM, but it gets frustrating when it's not clear what to do to improve.

I've seen what you're describing, where the AI on Excellent can bring the aircraft to a complete stall, then pitch down in complete control. I suppose if I keep practicing slow speed control in the Dora, I might be able to accomplish a chandelle or some other way of whipping my nose around quickly as I fall, that might be another way to use height and cut across the circle.

Very interesting to hear your experiences online against real opponents. Seems that Mustang is basically a match for the Dora, and the only real advantage it gives is an ability to escape if the fight is going against you. Certainly the climb rate, raw power and improved high altitude performance must have been a real boost to morale for pilots transitioning from the Fw 190A.

Pilot's skills are deciding factor as it was mentioned many times earlier. As to me I feel myself more comfortable in Pony than in Dora having myself on my six in opposite aircraft ( actually I try to decrease number of such cases :) ).

Both aircraft have magnificent speed and I like it very much. Alt+speed for these aircraft are key prerequisites to control a situation. They can save your life or defeat the enemy if you use them properly.

Oh I agree. I know that pilot skill is the most important factor in aerial combat (at least prior to the ultra-modern era), but I'm trying to figure out HOW to improve my skills :). Just flying over and over again doesn't always lead to skill improvement when it's not clear what to do differently. These discussions are very helpful to help figure out what to focus on to improve the skills.

This makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to figure out how to use the Dora's superior roll rate to somehow even the odds.

 

So the idea is to get sufficient vertical separation that I can basically do a Split-S downwards, then use roll halfway down to point myself "across the circle"?

Hello, sorry it took so long to get back. yes that's the general idea. get above him, offset so you can see him below you. roll over inverted and locate him out the top of the canopy. don't stay inverted too long as the engine can lose oil pressure after 10 seconds or so. roll back over and you should be pointed at him in about a 60-70 deg. dive. any steeper than that and you are too close. make 1 pass, and keep going level out keep hi speed, and gentile climb. you can also chandelle, but that's another story. just remember that 1000 meters a min climb is almost 3000 ft a min, and the pony has trouble climbing that fast in a sustained way. the dora can ACELLERATE while climbing at 1000 meters a min if its not too full of fuel.the idea is to keep him under you and slower(because he is either evading you or climbing up to you) wash ,rinse, repeat. by the way a Chandelle is basicly a climbing split-S trading energy for alt, max climb pull up do 1/2 loop and roll level at top heading in opposite direction, another useful maneuver,

I believe the 1\2 loop roll out is actually an Immelmann Chandelle s just basically a climbing turn

No worries, and thanks for the response. That's useful info. Yes, I guess I was mixing up the Chandelle with a hammerhead stall. I was trying to figure out how to use the 190s greater abilities in the vertical to bring the nose around quickly without trying to do a conventional turn (where I fall behind the Mustang). Will give these techniques some practice...