How do you lure your prey?

This is a little different than a "How do you survive" or "What aircraft can do what" thread. It's combat related, but it's different. I've read and learned that different aircraft have different capabilities. For example, the Mustang has a higher roll rate than the 109, but can only turn tighter and roll far faster than it at high speeds, so for a short amount of time, or sustained in a decensing turn. That's just one example.

My question is: How do you get the other guy to fall victim to you? Do you fly at high altitudes, and when the 109 climbs towards you, you wait for him to stall to knock him out of the sky? I think there was a name for this...some tactic used during WWI?

What are some situations and methods you dogfighters use to trap the 109/190 before bringing the ax down? Stories, strategies, etc.

I mostly go out alone, and while I have gotten kills on both and been killed by both, I am looking to improve. I have a hard time applying my Mustang's advantages, because frankly I don't know how to. At the moment, I fly at 10,000ft, wait to spot a black speck against something bright (fat chance of that) and BnZ. If I get dived on or have a 109 that comes up to me, I don't know what to do! So I just drop everything and WEP it back to base, all the while hollering in the chat "HEADING TO (airfield) WITH COMPANY! PLZ HELP!"

Just had an idea: You have a 109K4 on your 6, medium-close range. You dive. Once you get your speed up, you bank and turn to the side. The 109 attempts to follow, but because of its speed its turn is really wide. You snap roll back the other direction, and you both start a decending scissors fight. Because of the 109's and your high speed, you quickly start pulling into the 109 and start firing shots on him. You either get lucky and land good hits, or he climbs away. Which is why you must be accurate and pour lead into the K4 while you can.

This is an example of the format I want, and also a theory. :)

You could use me... I make a very good lure :megalol:

I'm pretty great at getting shot down.

But yeah, I second these questions.

Just had an idea: You have a 109K4 on your 6, medium-close range. You dive. Once you get your speed up, you bank and turn to the side. The 109 attempts to follow, but because of its speed its turn is really wide. You snap roll back the other direction, and you both start a decending scissors fight. Because of the 109's and your high speed, you quickly start pulling into the 109 and start firing shots on him. You either get lucky and land good hits, or he climbs away. Which is why you must be accurate and pour lead into the K4 while you can.

This is an example of the format I want, and also a theory. :)

Depending on what speed we are talking about, the 109 pilot can use trim and your plan might not work as intended.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating.

Never fight in the P-51 alone. Find a buddy to fly with, or stay home.

This is a simulation. Do you think a P-51 pilot during the war went out alone to fight 109's? Why are you?

I've said this before, but it bears repeating.

 

Never fight in the P-51 alone. Find a buddy to fly with, or stay home.

 

This is a simulation. Do you think a P-51 pilot during the war went out alone to fight 109's? Why are you?

Because this is DCS, and many axis/red pilots will go out solo. My intention is to learn to keep myself in a good position as best I can, 1v1, so then when I fly out with other guys, I can be successful, accurate, relyable, and actually know what the hell I'm doing without making stupid moves. Once I get as best I can in the P-51 in a 1v1 fight, then I will fall back with pals.

I have gone out with others before, and when I'm called upon or am needed, I don't have the sufficient skills to save their tails before they die, or someone else comes in to help them out. Teamwork is important, but it only takes you so far. Same goes with skills.

Does anyone have anything to add, similar to my example above? Would be appreciated.

I also put up another question in the 109 section: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=195050 I would appreciate input for that as well.

Another theory: 109 on your 6, also medium-close range. Also high speed. You make a 90 degree aileron roll to the right, and pull up (pull stick aft) a little so the 109 will start following in that direction. Then make a controlled snap-roll 180 to the left, and pull away. This theoretically will put some distance between you and the 109. Because of the high speed, the 109's controls are not very effective. Slow roll and pitch response, and using the rudder to try to snap roll will have minimal effect, as the rudder will quickly be pushed back, and wouldn't have come out far enough/long enough to engage a snap roll, or a controlled one. Meanwhile the speed was of your aid, and made the snap roll quicker in response. 109 will take a moment to get back into you. In those seconds, you could have done something. Dive, climb, whatever.

This would also be effective when you DO have a pal with you, as this will leave the 109 wide open. Low risk of your wingman hitting you as he opens fire on the 109.

I shouldn't have to be the only one pulling these out. I'm open to suggestions, your own tricks, and your own theories, which is why I put this thread up instead of writing my own ideas on a piece of paper.

The problem is your examples put you in situations you shouldn't be in. You need to work harder to not get in those situations instead of how to get out of them.

Stay high, stay fast. B&Z and don't do anything else. The Germans are high. You go higher. Refuse to be lured out of it. No matter how easy the kill may look. Discipline. Make believe your life depends on it and don't make mistakes.

I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but you're going against a better plane and experienced pilots. You need to fly to your strengths. As few as there are in the P-51.

I'll share what I was taught when I learned to BnZ in an SE5a in a WWI sim decades ago:

Get high, VERY high (10,000 feet isn't high). 30,000 feet would be good and realistic.

Wait. Patiently. Softtee, Softee Catchee Monkey is a useful mantra.

When a bogey passes below you, dive on him. If it's a bandit, shoot him. If it's a good guy, extend (run away). Don't turn, don't give up any energy. Whether you hit him or not, extend and climb away. Far away.

Lather, rinse, repeat. One of the big advantages of the Mustang is it can stay up there a very long time (unless you have been fooling with the fuel supply)

It really works but a lot of impatient folks find it boring.

You need to fly to your strengths. As few as there are in the P-51.

Keep in mind that the K4 is a year younger than the P-51D, and technology changed really fast during WWII. The K4 is better in some ways, yes. But keep in mind that at the time of the Mustang's release to the skies, it was a fighter in a league of its own. Your jab was the equivalent of saying the P-51D is a terrible aircraft, and I will not let that slip by!

Cheese. 109s are real suckers for cheese - especially Emmental.

Seriously though, add a few B17s for bait, and fly the Mustang as an escort ship. When the 109s attack the bombers...

Keep in mind that the K4 is a year younger than the P-51D, and technology changed really fast during WWII. The K4 is better in some ways, yes. But keep in mind that at the time of the Mustang's release to the skies, it was a fighter in a league of its own. Your jab was the equivalent of saying the P-51D is a terrible aircraft, and I will not let that slip by!

The 109K could out-turn and out-climb the P-51. The 109 was indeed a better dog fighter.

What he was telling you and what I am telling you is to play to the Mustang's strengths: Long loiter time and wonderful aerodynamics.

Get very high and BnZ. Hit and Run. You will lose in a turn fight with the 109.

The 109K could out-turn and out-climb the P-51. The 109 was indeed a better dog fighter.

 

What he was telling you and what I am telling you is to play to the Mustang's strengths: Long loiter time and wonderful aerodynamics.

 

Get very high and BnZ. Hit and Run. You will lose in a turn fight with the 109.

This is absolutely correct. I know from experience, and not just my own. The only kills I've ever gotten in P-v-P vs a 109 (and very few they have been indeed) were from B-n-Z.

The biggest issue I have with the situation, is that on typical air-quake servers, almost all the 109's and 190's are flying into the combat zone after diving in from about 5k to gain a lot of energy and are flying around 1k now, and it was nearly impossible to see them from 10k, even before I started using VR, but now... :cry:

if bandits get on your six you are not flying like you should. Boom and zoom tactic works well if you can hold her higher by miles up than the bandit. Its exclusively warbird tactic. If you cant shake the bandit, speed away but do NOT climb. 109 is a superb climber (its basically a space shuttle). Do NOT, again, DO NOT climb with the 109. Watch his ailerons and general direction. If he climbs that is because he wants you to overshoot, which is again, BnZ, or lag displacement roll he is doing. To counter this, you must slow down as he will eventually lose speed when higher then descend upon you. When he does that, turn towards his turn plane then when he passes you descending, you perform a lag displacement roll climbing, if you feel he is getting closer.

Another thing is, do not speed away if he is AI. He WILL kill you. If you are separated enough, then and only then you only speed away. Once a few miles ahead, climb and place him on your twelve. Can you post a track?

As much as a lot of the people here are correct in that you can certainly fly and get kills in a very ‘safe’ manner by flying BnZ, it is by no means the only way or even most effective way to fly the Mustang (nor is it necessarily how the mustang was always flown irl). That and I guess I’m one of those impatient people because I find it boring as all hell. Even if you do fly BnZ only sooner or later someone will appear co energy or behind you, and at that point if you don’t know at least some very basic dogfighting, even if it’s just enough to work out some wiggle room to run away, you’re gonna lose.

Before going into specifics of Mustang vs 109, the most important thing to know for dogfighting any aircraft in any semi decent sim is that airplanes only turn so hard. Once you exceed critical aoa your wings stop making lift and keep making drag. Think of it like motorcycle racing, the closer to the limit, the more performance you get, but once you go over, even if by a little, bad things happen or will happen soon. In DCS this means when the plane starts wobbling and shuddering, let the stick forward a bit.

Another thing that helps is hitting the right angles. Instead of just following your target around, take shortcuts. Fly to where he’s going to be, not where he is. Roll to put your lift vector ahead of him. This can be tricky to get a feel for and if you overdo it you can end up putting yourself in front of him in extreme cases. This is something you can get hints on by watching videos of good pilots flying. Look at what it looks like from the cockpit and try to do that. If something works, memorise it and do it again. Practice against the ai on high or excellent. As much as it’s BS you need to fly cleanly to stick with it through loops and climbing turns etc.

If you understand these things, and use the flaps a little, you can simply outturn 90+% of 109 pilots in DCS. Period. Nothing fancy, just clean coordinated flying.

Also learn how to shoot. Now that you put all that effort into a shooting position, don’t waste it. Especially since it’s usually harder to get a second shot if you were already clawing for the first.

Mustang vs 109:

109 climbs better, and turns better at low speed.

The P-51 does everything better at high speed except climbing.

What this means for the 109 is the best thing to do in a co energy merge is go up. You’ll end up higher, and in the area where your airplane performs better. Best case is mustang tries to match your climb and overdo it, stalling out in the process.

In the mustang, as in any plane it’s also a good idea to go into a steep climbing turn at the merge. This way you take a lot of the speed energy you had with you. However don’t get too slow. This sounds like a contradiction but with practice you’ll figure out how much energy to conserve. At this point best case is opponent stays low and does level turns below you burning off his energy. You’re above, use the altitude to stay away from his guns and then drop down and kill him.

If he goes up with you things get more interesting. If he’s co alt use flaps and start turning at him, even better if you take it in a descending spiral and he mirrors you, where you turn better. If he keeps going up then you have to decide if you have enough angles advantage to stay with him for a shot, or if you’ll run out of energy before he does and stall out.

If after the merge you find your oponnent knows what he’s doing and is above you, or just generally when you’re getting BnZed by a 109, use your high speed advantage. Don’t try to hang from the propellor unless you’re sure it will work. Drop the nose and extend, waiting for him to come down on you. At the right moment break hard into the bandit, sometimes a slight rolling turn helps to avoid guns as well. If he goes up extend again and keep doing it till he gets impatient. Sometimes they’ll try and keep turning in on you when they have too much speed. Here you can reverse as he shoots out behind you and get on his tail, if you’re fast enough still you might have a shot, or at least enough of a burst to scare him into more turning to let you get closer.

With a close 6 rolling and flat scissors at high speed work well in the Mustang too. Watch his nose and where it's going in the rolls. Duck under it or above it, roll and turn in short bursts. Bring him closer and try to force an overshoot. Otherwise if you have enough separation enter a shallow dive and run away.

Never ever point the nose straight down and dive for the deck as a defensive move. Maybe it works on noobs who don't know about the stick forces but most will just wait for you to give up all your energy and then come down on you.

Other things at your disposal include the K-14 sight, flaps and the tail radar.

Learn when the K-14 is telling you nonsense and when to ignore it. If used the way it’s supposed to it’s deadly.

The tail radar is a great SA helper too. It doesn’t replace checking 6 though. Also make sure to bind a switch to turn it off at low alt.

Use 1-2 notches of flaps in turns, 3 in extreme cases and at the tops of loops.

The mustang doesn’t suck as much as some people think it does. A competent pilot can wreak havoc on most 109 pilots in dcs.

S! And Happy Hunting ;)

The P-51 has been the plane I love best since 1950. I don't give it jabs.

The P-51 few advantages over the DCS 109, but it can still shoot it down if you fly smart. Something you don't do. I'm trying to help you, but you're too stubborn to realize it. I doubt you'll ever shoot down a good pilot in a 109. You might pick off a noob now and then.

Keep doing what you're doing and keep getting shot down. I could care less now.

As much as a lot of the people here are correct ...

;)

Half of what you are saying, I don't understand what you mean:

".. will appear co energy or behind you.."

"If he’s co alt .."

and the other half is contradictory.

The 51 looses speed quickly in any sharp maneuvers. Hard turns, hard pulling on the stick, whether in order to go into a climb, or to increase your turn rate, it always kills the precious, hard earned energy, which you need to keep yourself alive.

If you are flying against a single AI 109, and you could attain a kill-shot against it if you increase your turn rate (which will kill your speed), then there will be no consequences of trading speed for turn-rate, because your only opponent in the world will be dead.

If you are in MP and are not certain you will not encounter anybody else until you have regained energy, it would be folly to expose yourself to that danger; although I must admit, I'd probably do it too, because virtual-lives are cheap.

I've heard the argument for using flaps to increase turn-rate (10° at the very most), I've even heard interviews with actual WWII pilots who have stated that they used it, but again, it's a speed killer, and this one is like the daddy of all speed killers.

I think I understand what you mean about a 109 diving on you, that you can turn inside his dive and/or turn-rate. I actually saw somebody demonstrating this on YT in IL2-COD, but with a 109 and a Spitfire. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the video, and kick myself in the ass since.

The thing is, the Spitfire's turn-rate is so great, it leaves very little chance for the diving 109 to react and compensate for the Spitfire's radical course change. The 1o9's attack-cone is simply too small, to allow the Spitfire from escaping.

The 51 does not have that much luxury. If the 109 is diving on you, it is one of your last hopes, so you might as well trying, because you're not going to gain an energy advantage over the 109, before it kills you; unless the 109's pilot is an absolute n00b.

The only thing I know which works if a decent 109 pilot is behind you, is out-rolling him. The 51 roles much quicker, and every pilot has a reaction time. Unless your opponent has literally the reaction time of an Olympic athlete, his reaction time will be between 0.10 and 0.50 seconds.

Firstly, even if you told the 109 pilot that you are going to roll in 3..2..1..GO! fashion, so that he starts to roll at the exact same time, by the time you get to 90° roll, he's only at 60-70°. But since you are not coordinating your roll with your opponent, and its reasonable to assume he's not a world-class athlete, every time you roll out if his flight path, he's lagging behind your direction change. If you do this well, and confound the enemy enough, you can get your self into a scissors situation and actually reverse positions with the 109, with you scissoring more and more behind him, until you get yourself into a tail shot position.

It's certainly not easy, and you have to be able to fly extremely cleanly so that you lose as little energy as possible. If you are not that good, but you can still get the 109 to start scissoring with you, you can still wait until he's at the outside of the scissor, and simply keep moving away. I believe Default was trying to explain this.

Co energy = Same energy level, Co alt = same altitude etc

Some of the things I mention are somewhat contradictory. And they will seem that way until you try them and figure out exactly how much to apply them. Find the happy medium where it works. e.g. Going up and staying fast. Obviously you only have so much airspeed to trade. So how much do you trade to minimise your altitude disadvantage, yet still have enough speed to maneuver once you get there?

Every plane loses energy when turning (less if you fly coordinated and cleanly ;) ). That's what you are doing in a dogfight. Spending your energy for Angles. It is very much possible to have an energy advantage and an angles disadvantage and get shot down.

Sure, if you are concerned with enemy's appearing everywhere all the time then fly BnZ. It is safer. Minimal Risk. But you can get away with it if you pay attention. Also just because an enemy appears with more energy doesn't mean he's already won the fight..... In fact killing the ones who start from behind with an E advantage is the most fun anyway so why not go looking for trouble? :P

I think we're on the same page with the rolls. But yes it is tricky to do it absolutely right with an enemy starting on your dead 6. Requires proper Rudder, timing, and clean flying.

The P-51 has been the plane I love best since 1950. I don't give it jabs.

 

The P-51 few advantages over the DCS 109, but it can still shoot it down if you fly smart. Something you don't do. I'm trying to help you, but you're too stubborn to realize it. I doubt you'll ever shoot down a good pilot in a 109. You might pick off a noob now and then.

 

Keep doing what you're doing and keep getting shot down. I could care less now.

That's kind of funny, and accurate IMO. Too many guys spend too much time watching the History Channel where all American designed machines are far superior to the enemy stuff. The truth was that the 109 would have easily won WWII for the Germans had they had the leadership, and trained pilots.

The P-51 was not the end all of aircraft. The 109 was a very capable fighter plane. More so than the P-51 in the opinions of those who flew them.

Watch this full video, it tells it like it is.

Reality comes crashing in!!!!!!!

Every fighter pilot thinks his airplane is the greatest fighter there ever was. No matter where he came from.

 

I think I understand what you mean about a 109 diving on you, that you can turn inside his dive and/or turn-rate. I actually saw somebody demonstrating this on YT in IL2-COD, but with a 109 and a Spitfire. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the video, and kick myself in the ass since.

 

Apeoftheyear YouTube channel

Best move I've ever seen caught on video "

.

Thanks for the tips, but that's not the tutorial I had seen. Apeoftheyear is only doing 109 tutorials really, and the one I'm thinking of was specifically about what to do in the Spitfire against a 109 diving in on a Spitfire's tail with a lot of energy.

But thanks again anyway :thumbup:

Same thing as in any plane, defend guns with tight turns or rolls, and then extend/regain energy for further defence as he climbs back up, or if he tries to maneuver with you with too much energy, outturn him and kill him.

Get high, VERY high (10,000 feet isn't high). 30,000 feet would be good and realistic.

Unfortunately, this is really the only thing that can work for P-51 pilots in DCS, given that we've got the lowest of the historical WEP ratings. I say "unfortunately" because the nature of multiplayer flight sim-games is such that it is neither reasonable nor practical to expect users to fly up to 30,000 feet every time they want a fight. You're going to very seldom find a fight up there, and even when you do, your combat-to-travel ratio is going to be appalling (which means that your ratio of learning to not-learning will be just as low; in effect, one cannot ever become truly proficient at dogfighting when burdened by such a poor rate of learning).

Real fighter pilots, by the way, became (and become) proficient at dogfighting by regularly practicing it under artificial conditions (i.e. extensive pre-arranged mock-dogfights with allies), not by wandering around the skies for hours, waiting for a rare fight to try to learn from. This is why I object to the method of "just fly up to high altitude for every fight" being suggested as a viable solution to the problem, even though it's currently the only way the P-51 can be on anything approaching even terms with the 109 in DCS.

(It also doesn't account for the common situation of the enemy having already been in the air for a while before you took off, and intercepting you with his E advantage while you're still at low altitude; the 109 can turn the tables if it's in this position, while the P-51 cannot.)

The truth was that the 109 would have easily won WWII for the Germans had they had the leadership, and trained pilots.

I don't think that's accurate. As a low and medium altitude dogfighter, the 109 was generally superior to American fighters, it's true. But wars aren't won exclusively in the dogfight. The 109 had a couple of fatal flaws, from a strategic standpoint: short range and difficulty of landing.

Germany lost the war on a strategic level, not a tactical level, and both the 109's short range and the difficulty of learning to fly the 109 (e.g. the extremely high rate of landing accidents) were problems that contributed to the overall loss. It was strategy and logistics that lost Germany the war (things like Hitler's downplaying of the Me 262, and Germany's inability to keep up with attrition), not fighter quality or pilot skill. Still, those two of the 109s flaws were serious in the big picture, even while they didn't matter during the dogfight itself.

Germany lost the war by taking a bigger bite than it could chew.