What's with P-51 versus Fw 190 in Dogfights ?

I just got done flying with "Tom the Taxman" to conduct an experiment.

In level flight around 4000 feet above sea level, we started flying side-by-side. I generally keep my Manifold at 47 and RPM's at 27 ... the higher I go, the more I have to increase Manifold to keep it at 47.

When Tom the Taxman gunned his plane, he literally left me in the dust like I'm standing still.

 

We tried to meet at around 21000 feet but were unable to (I think he ran out of oxygen .. and died). But regardless what altitude I flew at, I was at no time ever able to exceed 300 mph in level flight.

Even dropping at 6000 fpm (feet per minute), I was unable to exceed 350 mph. I had to go into a considerable dive to get it slightly over 400-425 ... just below the threshold of breaking apart.

 

The particular article I linked to (earlier post) does compare the P-51B but also refers to the P-51D as being even more superior as far as stats go. According to that document, the P-51 was supposedly 50mph faster than the Dora in level flight "at any altitude". Yet when Tom and I were flying side-by-side, I was flying maximum 325mph (at best) and his still took off like a bullet compared to me.

And yes, I do know how to trim for streamlined flight in the P-51. It helps, but not enough.

 

So while "I" might be dreaming a bit, I still think that either the DCS P-51 is Under-Performing or the Fw 190 is Over-Performing. There simply is no comparison between them as far as speed goes. The Dora is simply MUCH Faster at any elevation ... whether it should be or not.

BTW- We even tried matching Weight by setting our Fuel Levels accordingly.

I know the Dora is lighter (dry weight) and smaller in size and therefore more nimble, but to me the results are ridiculous.

 

In any case, it is a disappointment to me. Maybe my expectations are too high to begin with. I don't know. All I do know is that regardless what source I find (via internet), all accounts appear to suggest that the P-51 should perform a bit better (or allot better) than the DCS P-51 does .. In MY Opinion.

None the less, I still love it.

47hg @27rpm is max continous though.

you dont expect the p51 keeping up with the dora at that settings do you?or did i somehow mis-read your post?

Edited December 1, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

PS> There is still lots for me to learn and I intend to learn it all.

If anyone thinks they can show me some things, I'd be grateful to have them spend some time with me.

Thanks.

Actually for both planes at best conditions(the Dora running with C3 + MW50, the P51D running at 81"hg), the P51D is only like 10mph faster than the Dora at SL.

 

But currently in game we have the Dora running at it's best condition, while the Mustang's at it's worst.

Edited December 1, 2014 by GrapeJam

And we have report from pilots that pull 75"hg for around 15 minutes with no problem.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/353-hinchey-14nov44.jpg

Ok. So I open this report and...:

 

I turned into them and dove

For fifteen minutes at 74" and indicating 600 mph after my prolonged dive

So basically this guy dove and increase speed to much more than mustang can fly in straight flight. It would be really strange if he would overheat his engine at such speed, lol :lol: Moreover it's november with almost winter temperatures. Change temperature in your mission and you will be surprised :music_whistling: And the last, in this report a modification of mustang is not mentioned.

 

RAF pilots were allowed 5 minutes of 81 "hg.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

Those RAF Mustang units tasked with defending against the V-1 were modified to operated at +25 lbs./sq.in.

So we have a specific modification for an interception of V-1 here, nuff said. Moreover "+25 lbs./sq.in." so it means previously they had only 56 "hg? Lol, just what we have found here :thumbup:

 

There's no reason for the P51D's engine to die after immediately 5 minutes of 67"hg usage.

I will repeat: it is not dying after 5 minutes. I flew with 67"hg for more than 15 minutes without any problem. It looks like you overheat it by slow speed and it's die after it.
Edited December 1, 2014 by Virun

I get it, and I think DCS depicts the Mustang well. There's room for improvement and that's why we have these threads. Hopefully the developers look at these conversations once in a while. I know at least the moderators keep them somewhat up to date. I'm confident there will continue to be progress.

 

I do too, but the issue is that the P-51 was kind of made for just flying about, while the Fw190 was made for the more competitive DCS-1945 scene. When the P-51 module was made, it didn't mater how many inches of hg it was pulling, as long as it was authentic.

 

It's shows in how highly tuned the Fw190 is as opposed to the P-51, even with it's extremely rare gun sight. Out of curiosity I wonder how many actual D9 performed like the one we have in game.

 

P-51 was a great modules for DCS when all you could do was fly the P-51 and fight against a unfinished Fw190, but it needs to be updated to 1945 standards, for a 1945 competitive setting.

P-51 was kind of made for just flying about

 

:lol:

ED should be going for the most common historical match-up which would mean giving the Mustang 72" at a minimum and possibly 75". This would bring it in line with the Dora and Kurfust variants that they've modelled. Anything else is pretty incorrect. Can understand how we got here as they didn't really intend to make a full on WW2 sim themselves nevertheless I hope the Mustang gets a revisit to make it a proper late '44-45 combat variant.

:lol:

 

You know that I said that with tongue in cheek, right? The point is that for well over a year, the P-51 was the only WW2 module. I doubt the P-51 was made with Europe 1945 in mind. While the Fw190 does a pretty good job of indicating that it is.

 

Seems like a bit of an oversight and is understandable if they didn't plan on making a full WW2 sim at the time of the P-51 development. I do hope they revisit it.

So we have a specific modification for an interception of V-1 here, nuff said. Moreover "+25 lbs./sq.in." so it means previously they had only 56 "hg? Lol, just what we have found here :thumbup:

Wanna know what the modification was?

 

The throttle.

 

Anyway, when the P51D was allowed 5 minutes of 81" hg no matter what speed, there's no reason for the P51D's engine to die after 5 minutes of 67"hg of low speed aerobatics.

 

And the 81"hg was not just for V1 chasing, but also for combat.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports/129-davis-23march45.jpg

Edited December 2, 2014 by GrapeJam

Actually for both planes at best conditions(the Dora running with C3 + MW50, the P51D running at 81"hg), the P51D is only like 10mph faster than the Dora at SL.

 

But currently in game we have the Dora running at it's best condition, while the Mustang's at it's worst.

 

Dora´s Junkers Jumo213 A runs on B4.

C3 Fuel was not available for all late war models.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Isegrim

Wanna know what the modification was?

 

The throttle.

And so? And why they had to modificate it? Why they didn't have it from stock and had only 56hg?

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports/129-davis-23march45.jpg

March 45

In DCS we have P-51D-20NA from 44.

 

I opened up for to +25lbs of boost 3.000 revs and dived down to engage

Another guy DIVED. Nice proof.

 

So you ignored other what i said. You ignored my statement that in game engine isn't dying even after 15 minutes at 67"hg of normal cooling... I think it's useless to continue this conversation, you will keep crying for 81" hg no matter what.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Virun

Dora´s Junkers Jumo213 A runs on B4.

C3 Fuel was not available for all late war models.

No known operational D9 used C3 fuel, correct, still here's it theoretical performance with C3 fuel:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_D-9_C3.pdf

No known operational D9 used C3 fuel, correct, still here's it theoretical performance with C3 fuel:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_D-9_C3.pdf

 

C3 went to 1.98ata K-4 units, if some are to be believed.:smilewink:

I'm going to concede that "I" probably didn't explore ALL the variables when comparing the two aircraft during today's test. I have since done some more on my own to determine other factors that make up the last 50-70 mph that the P-51 should and CAN do.

Things such as using WEP and simply revving the RPM's and Manifold Pressure UP.

 

I don't know why, but I have been thinking that in a Cruising configuration, the P-51 should still be able to at least keep up with the Fw 190. That simply isn't true ... as I have discovered time and time again.

The question I have yet to answer is what is the Optimum Settings when using WEP (or not) when cranking up the Manifold and RPM's and for that matter, playing with Fuel Mixtures ... which I have yet to do even once.

 

SO I'm going to take back at least some of my original argument "and eat it" like a man.

It's easy (for me at least !) to fly off the handle and blame everything else when things aren't going well. It's not so easy to admit I'm wrong .. let alone even consider the possibility.

But in this case ... I think I'm just Wrong. At least in some respects .. if not entirely.

 

Just the same, I do appreciate all the comments and knowledge that have come of this thread and my original spiel.

snowtiger...no reason to play with mixture...except full rich can help to cool the engine down..but only use it when very very low!otherwise you will lose power.so normally leave the mixture on "run".as soon as you go above 46hg, use full 3000rpm.

 

you can also use WEP.then its a bit more tricky to keep the engine healthy.but if done correctly, at least 30minutes with continuous WEP is possile and no problem.having said that, i have yet to feel the need to enable it against the dora.

*double post*

Edited December 2, 2014 by GrapeJam

And so? And why they had to modificate it? Why they didn't have it from stock and had only 56hg?

 

In DCS we have P-51D-20NA from 44.

This is thie P-51D-20NA:

Notice something absent in the rear?

 

The tail radar.

 

This is the DCS P51D:

Notice something present in the rear?

 

The tail radar.

 

And FYI, 81"hg was first allowed for the 1943 P51B, which used the exact same engine as the P51D ;)

 

And USAAF P51D started with 70"hg during D-Day, the raised to 75"hg minimum in the fall of 1944.

 

Another guy DIVED. Nice proof.

Right, apparently the 5 minutes limit is just for high speed diving.:music_whistling:

Oh wait no, the article just said that 5 minutes was allowed.

 

So you ignored other what i said. You ignored my statement that in game engine isn't dying even after 15 minutes at 67"hg of normal cooling... I think it's useless to continue this conversation, you will keep crying for 81" hg no matter what.

Doesn't matter, when 5 minutes of 81"hg was allowed no matter what speed, what circumstance(that is including low speed dogfight), there's no for reason the P51D's engine to die after 5 minutes of 67"hg in low speed dogfight.

 

Seriously, use your common sense.

Edited December 2, 2014 by GrapeJam

I'm pretty new to the P-51 and my first dozen SP missions against the Dora they ran me down pretty easily. I finally figured out I could turn sharper and finally lined up on their six. All my hits and kills have been on the climb, almost running right into them.

 

Also I blew quite a few engines up in the beginning, overheating until I figured out that it was always happening at lower speeds. Now I watch my gauges closer and keep my speed higher and now I'm not blowing up anymore.

I have since done some more on my own to determine other factors that make up the last 50-70 mph that the P-51 should and CAN do.

 

This is still using figures which compare the right aircraft with the wrong one. The A model referenced is an A4, without spares and tested over and over again by the British first, it's not even indicative of a factory fresh model with perfect maintenance.

 

And FYI, 81"hg was first allowed for the 1943 P51B, which used the exact same engine as the P51D ;)

 

 

The A/B models used the Alison Engine - designed for low alt i.e. PR

The D/C models had the Merlin engines - High Alt long range escout.

The A/B models used the Alison Engine - designed for low alt i.e. PR

The D/C models had the Merlin engines - High Alt long range escout.

Not true.

 

P-51 and P-51A were with Alison engine.

P-51B and C were the same model from 2 different factories. Both of them had Merlin engine. They had slight differences. Nothing big, and some of them were made with malcolm hood.

Well "gavagai" ... I guess you were right !

 

You need to present your sources. Never take them for granted. If the evidence is on your side people will see it. If the evidence is ambiguous, then we'll get a 20 page thread about the supposed bias of ww2aircraftperformance.org and technical discussions of aviation fuel that you need a PhD in organic chemistry to understand.

 

It appears I should have included at least one source of my information in my first post.

In fact, I probably should have included a few references ... seeing that I have a few.

Too late now ... to make any real difference.

 

***********************************

Thanks again to everyone who joined this conversation, both in support or to counter my claims. Unfortunately, it appears I have opened a can of worms (so-to-speak). I definitely didn't mean to get anyone riled up (like I was when I wrote the first post).

But I have learned a couple things from this thread that I didn't already know about the Mustang. Ultimately, I hope others might find some use for this thread in the future however since there are so many differing views, I'm not sure that will be the case.

Just the same, I'm grateful for ALL of the replies.

 

Happy Con-Trails everyone.

Not true.

 

P-51 and P-51A were with Alison engine.

P-51B and C were the same model from 2 different factories. Both of them had Merlin engine. They had slight differences. Nothing big, and some of them were made with malcolm hood.

 

To clarify further, the early P51Bs had the V-1650-3 engine, AKA Merlin 61, but later refitted with the V-1650-7 engine, AKA Merlin 66, most P51Bs were fitted with this engine.

To clarify further, the early P51Bs had the V-1650-3 engine, AKA Merlin 61, but later refitted with the V-1650-7 engine, AKA Merlin 66, most P51Bs were fitted with this engine.

 

With the introduction of the P-51C-5-NT onto the Dallas production line and the P-51B-15-NA in the Inglewood production line, the Packard V-1560-7 engine was adopted as standard.

1990 P-51Bs were built.

1750 P-51Cs were built.

 

43-12093/12492 North American P-51B-1-NA Mustang (NA-102) c/n 102-24541/24940. 400 aircraft

 

43-6313/7112 North American P-51B-5-NA Mustang (NA-104) c/n 104-22816/23305, 24431/24540, 24941/25140. 800 aircraft

 

43-7113/7202 North American P-51B-10-NA Mustang (NA-104) c/n 104-25141/25230. 90 aircraft

 

42-106429/106540 North American P-51B-10-NA Mustang (NA-104) c/n 104-25231/25342. 112 aircraft

 

42-106541/106738 North American P-51B-10-NA Mustang (NA-104) c/n 104-25343/25540. 198 aircraft

 

42-102979/103328 North American P-51C-1-NT Mustang (NA-103) c/n 103-22416/22765. 350 aircraft