P-51 vs Bf-109 dogfight impressions

Did you only use flat turns then? With some vertical in the turn I find the 109 will generally kill the P51 in short order.

Both of us attempted Yo-Yoing. No advantage to either.

Hmm strange i think K-4 should eat P-51 in turns quite easly.

Hmm strange i think K-4 should eat P-51 in turns quite easly.

If 109 pilot is silly and only makes long, sustained flat turns, then the P-51 has a chance of keeping up for a few circles.

Add in a vertical component and some reversals and the P-51 will lose quickly.

If 109 pilot is silly and only makes long, sustained flat turns, then the P-51 has a chance of keeping up for a few circles.

 

Add in a vertical component and some reversals and the P-51 will lose quickly.

Havent had an issue with that. Tried doing it myself in both planes, and so did the other person. slight yo-yoing did help a bit. Without flaps the 109s came around quite quickly though.

Hi all, actually the yo-yo method is preferable, as turning on the horizontal plane.

Now the horizontal method also works depand all the way to fly.:)

+ @ Mad

Well,

last night experience of dogfighting against AI and Human opponents, not on the 109 but on the D9 was simply AMAZING and gave me the true sense of how ahead DCS World really is when it comes to teaching it's viplots lessons of energy management!

I really look fwd to be able to enter that server in the future - it had just the right amount of settings to make my experience so special, starting with great skins in my p51d :)

Although I've been primarily vlying the German fighters, the first time I entered the session there were no Axis slots available, so I picked the p51d, and noticed, right from the start, that I had sort of transited into a RR of the ww2 fighters - it felt so much more stable and heavy, after having been vlying mostly the K4 !!!

Then, I easily fought the Fw190s ( human ) either taking them into low turns that ended in spins and crashes ( the p51d being able to out turn the Fw190 after a couple of rounds ... ), or to climbing dogfights...

Then, I changed aircraft to the Fw190, and it was soooo different!!! I had a great time too, but it certainly took me a lot more of concentration to be able to down a p51d - actually disintegrating it in front of me :)....

It really pays to have a combat flightsim where while we're having this immersive dogfights, we have to keep an eye on all engine parameters, manage our energy the best we can, etc...

It is the hardest plane to kill. AI makes it even worse. I think its safe to say that 109s are much better than mustangs, but the energy management and trimming, as well as flap usage are keys I yet to master.

AI 109 is a huge PITA. But if I'm fighting a good human opponent I still fear the 190 more than the 109. Against the 109 I have a chance of extending for a long time if I need to (even though the 109 will still catch up at some point). Against the 190 a good adversary won't even give you that chance.

Then... as you know gavagai :-), I am not a good adversary ...

Yesterday night I had another great MP experience at a Server that sometimes is available, for ww2 dogfight training.

p51ds, bf109s and fw190s were available in different situations and areas of the map. I fought first as a p51d against 109s and 190s - easy :-), then as 109 against the ponies - great!!! and finally as a 190 against ponies - disaster!!!

I think the different models really reflect the characteristics of their RW counterparts - this is no arcade sim!!! so, since I was not using the correct techniques, I could not down a single p51d, and was close to be catch by them, while I had just won their pilots easily when flying either the p51d or the 109 ...

I really have to keep practicing, at the great servers available - and wish for even more ww2 servers :-)

Ah! And yesterday FOR THE VERY 1st TIME!!!! I was also able to enter combat and even shot down an An26 at one of the DoW Servers!!!!! WHOW!!!!

I just got the Mustang and I am looking forward to flying it after reading your comments, jcomm.

Done sir,

 

 

 

Been spending a bit more time on the P51, because the 109 slots are always taken in MP! (I'll get more time in the Hun planes when the Spit comes out, for sure :pilotfly:)

 

This is a pretty sloppy dogfight but maybe it shows some of the strengths/weaknesses of the planes. The main/only thing the P51 has going for it is speed. You can pull pretty decent turns at 200mph, but below that the plane becomes a dog. Most of the turns I made weren't really to get on his six. They were mainly to make him cut into my turn and lose airspeed so I could get distance and recover energy.

 

I'm not very good at 1v1 though, I prefer flying with a wingman.

I have such a long way to go before I get anywhere near this good, and I'll have to upgrade my old rig, nee, build a new rig that runs smooth enough

Aside from learning some I got to have a great big laugh when I realized... there's a strange whistling sound at the beginning, just before you start the engine... it's... it's... :music_whistling: no, it's your nose :lol:

Thanks, I'll go back into my basket now

AI 109 is a huge PITA. But if I'm fighting a good human opponent I still fear the 190 more than the 109. Against the 109 I have a chance of extending for a long time if I need to (even though the 109 will still catch up at some point). Against the 190 a good adversary won't even give you that chance.

I don't have any WWII module yet. I'm just wondering why is the AI so different from a human player? What makes it such a pain in the ass?

I don't have any WWII module yet. I'm just wondering why is the AI so different from a human player? What makes it such a pain in the ass?

Bassiclly a ai 51 does not use its advantages which means you can knock out about 8 before gettting shot down. A human player keeps to his strong points and does not allow you if hes good to get his weak points.

Bassiclly a ai 51 does not use its advantages which means you can knock out about 8 before gettting shot down. A human player keeps to his strong points and does not allow you if hes good to get his weak points.

Advantages? Like what?:music_whistling:

Bassiclly a ai 51 does not use its advantages which means you can knock out about 8 before gettting shot down. A human player keeps to his strong points and does not allow you if hes good to get his weak points

Advantages? Like what?:music_whistling:

.

Click on image to make it larger + check post #164 from picture.

I couldn't help myself. :)

And thats a situational advantage only... where are the advantageS. I can't see plural :)

But yes thats true, at high speed the P-51 is more agille than 109. EDIT: Well ok... you may also give it higher max speed.

Let me show you Bf109K4 advatanges:

-better acceleration

-higher top speed in level flight

-better low speed handling

-better sustained turn

-better climb rate

-better weapons

-better roll rate at low speed

Hmmm... yeah... so little advantages on the Bf109 side and so many at P-51s

Both aircraft were meant for higher altitudes for either intercept or escort, would be nice if they add AI B17's. Both aircraft will fall into their role better. The P51 doesnt stand much chance in these low altitude engagements we currently have if they are up against a competent enemy pilot, up high though, that would make for some interesting duels.

And thats a situational advantage only... where are the advantageS. I can't see plural :)

 

But yes thats true, at high speed the P-51 is more agille than 109. EDIT: Well ok... you may also give it higher max speed.

 

Let me show you Bf109K4 advatanges:

-better acceleration

-higher top speed in level flight

-better low speed handling

-better sustained turn

-better climb rate

-better weapons

-better roll rate at low speed

 

 

Hmmm... yeah... so little advantages on the Bf109 side and so many at P-51s

I'm not such a great pilot compared to you.So if you could show me a video where you fly the 109 and just waste a ton of p51's that would be great.

But you see i'm poor and i only have this equipment :

No head tracking(i don't have money for TIR,and i can't get the freetrack to work), no pedals, no hotas.

I have to save a lot of time to buy DCS modules.

So show me how you do in a 109 using just this.

LOL You have better equipment than I do hahhahah xD

I have 5-6 years old AV8R :D(I asked my family they say it was way longer, like 8 years... but I am not sure about that) Yes thats my photo of my equipment :P

I have free track. It was made with my friend at his place. It took 3 hours but thanks to him I have a head tracking device for 25złoty (6 Euro)

http://www.free-track.net/english/

It is not top shelf, but it is ok. Thx to my friend again. He made an awesome job 2 years ago.

PS. Welcome to Poland :D I flew with that stick when I was still flying in old Il2 with my friends... so it had to be long ago.

And thats a situational advantage only... where are the advantageS. I can't see plural :)

 

But yes thats true, at high speed the P-51 is more agille than 109. EDIT: Well ok... you may also give it higher max speed.

 

Let me show you Bf109K4 advatanges:

-better acceleration

-higher top speed in level flight

-better low speed handling

-better sustained turn

-better climb rate

-better weapons

-better roll rate at low speed

Which is how is should be and also is in reality, thus we just gotta adapt :)

Remember to stay high to take advantage of the P-51's superior high alt performance, and stay fast to take advantage of the lighter controls at high speed. Basically B&Z all day long and set yourself a hard deck of ~15,000 ft, one which you will only go below if you've got enough speed to zoom climb up past it again.

Also those .50's are perfect for deflection shots due to their high MV and flat trajectory, another little advantage to take advantage of.

It's all about knowing your strengths and being really disciplined in following them.

Which is how is should be and also is in reality, thus we just gotta adapt :)

 

Remember to stay high to take advantage of the P-51's superior high alt performance, and stay fast to take advantage of the lighter controls at high speed. Basically B&Z all day long and set yourself a hard deck of ~15,000 ft, one which you will only go below if you've got enough speed to zoom climb up past it again.

 

Also those .50's are perfect for deflection shots due to their high MV and flat trajectory, another little advantage to take advantage of.

 

It's all about knowing your strengths and being really disciplined in following them.

Which is why playing on ACG server in P-51 is 3 times as hard as normal. Since everything happens on the deck. Just sayin' :D

Which is why playing on ACG server in P-51 is 3 times as hard as normal. Since everything happens on the deck. Just sayin' :D

Yeah, wish we could get some maps where you spawn at high alts, to simulate fights happening at bomber altitudes.

I agree, if we're going to do AirQuake anyways why not have some air-start high altitude AirQuake fights. :thumbup:

Advantages? Like what?:music_whistling:

I fly both, the P-51 and the Bf-109 on the ACG server and get good kills with them regularly.

The advantages of the P-51 are:

- way way better visibility all around which lets you loose your opponent less often

- higher deflection shots possible due to the gunsight mounted pretty high

- ass saving radar

- tighter turn radius

- better high speed controls

Here some tactics of mine that seem to work well

Defensive:

If I am in a P-51 and have a Bf-109 on your tail I normally try to lure it into a tight turn which in cannot follow. If he does, some barrel rolls later he is in front of me in my massive gunsight without any energy to do anything about it. If he isn't that novice and he pulls yoyos than you have to do standard counter BnZ. Turn into him and spoil his dive angles by staying below him, constantly climbing.

If I am in a Bf-109 and have a P-51 on my tail, its a lot harder. First, I normally notice them later since the visibility is pretty poor and I don't have the ass saving radar. After the initial break turn there are different things I do, depending on what the enemy does. If he overshoots my break turn I climb. Either he has an energy advantage and he comes around which brings us back to square one or he doesn't which allows me to do a spiral climb in a BnZ position. If he doesn't overshoot its time for scissors because this thing rolls so beautiful. It really hard though, since the armor plating over your head seems to be always in the way of having a look at him which you have to have to do successful scissors. If I get myself behind him I try to get a low deflection shot which I normally don't get because of the turn radius of the P-51. I cannot stand behind him if he is not completely stupid or AI so I don't waste any energy to get a high deflection low probability shot at him and instead climb to get some BnZ going.

Offensive:

Sneak behind the opponent, wait until you have a good shot, press the trigger for a while, enjoy.

It took me a long time to get this right tough. In the beginning I was a happy camper if I could even find an enemy to shoot at. Since I happened to loose them a lot, I shot as early as possible. Frontal aspect, rear aspect high deflection or insane deflection, I was shooting regardless. I might get a bullet or two into the enemy but most of them missed and I rarely shot anything down. Also, since I announced myself early by spraying bullet all over the place, I hardly got into a good position afterwards. Nowadays I fly mostly lag pursuit until I am in a good position with a low deflection angle. The P-51 is perfect to learn this since you cannot really do high deflection shots with your gyro sight anyways. Also its a lot easier to stay in lag pursuit with the more maneuverable P-51. The third thing in the list is 'press the trigger for a while'. I took me a while to realize that I have a lot of ammo with me and in contrast to shooters that thought me to do short bursts, the guns I have don't sway away to somewhere. At first I did only short bursts, looked where they went and tried to place another one. It works a lot better if you just keep the trigger pressed and let the enemy move through your stream of bullets. This only works if you are doing low deflection shooting and are already pretty close to hitting the enemy. Spraying by swaying all of your controls doesn't get you anywhere since you need way more than one bullet to get a kill.

The differences between the P-51 and Bf-109 here are: If you have a really good aim and happen to hit with the Mk-108, the fight is normally over. All the other benefits go to the P-51. You have the better gunsight, better forward visibility, tighter turn radius to get a good lead, better overall stability to keep your aim true and better overall visibility to keep your enemy in sight.

tl;dr; Both planes are awesome, fun to fight with and I make lots of kills with both.

-Mathias

I fly both, the P-51 and the Bf-109 on the ACG server and get good kills with them regularly.

 

The advantages of the P-51 are:

 

- way way better visibility all around which lets you loose your opponent less often

- higher deflection shots possible due to the gunsight mounted pretty high

- ass saving radar

- tighter turn radius

- better high speed controls

 

Here some tactics of mine that seem to work well

 

Defensive:

 

If I am in a P-51 and have a Bf-109 on your tail I normally try to lure it into a tight turn which in cannot follow. If he does, some barrel rolls later he is in front of me in my massive gunsight without any energy to do anything about it. If he isn't that novice and he pulls yoyos than you have to do standard counter BnZ. Turn into him and spoil his dive angles by staying below him, constantly climbing.

 

If I am in a Bf-109 and have a P-51 on my tail, its a lot harder. First, I normally notice them later since the visibility is pretty poor and I don't have the ass saving radar. After the initial break turn there are different things I do, depending on what the enemy does. If he overshoots my break turn I climb. Either he has an energy advantage and he comes around which brings us back to square one or he doesn't which allows me to do a spiral climb in a BnZ position. If he doesn't overshoot its time for scissors because this thing rolls so beautiful. It really hard though, since the armor plating over your head seems to be always in the way of having a look at him which you have to have to do successful scissors. If I get myself behind him I try to get a low deflection shot which I normally don't get because of the turn radius of the P-51. I cannot stand behind him if he is not completely stupid or AI so I don't waste any energy to get a high deflection low probability shot at him and instead climb to get some BnZ going.

 

Offensive:

 

Sneak behind the opponent, wait until you have a good shot, press the trigger for a while, enjoy.

It took me a long time to get this right tough. In the beginning I was a happy camper if I could even find an enemy to shoot at. Since I happened to loose them a lot, I shot as early as possible. Frontal aspect, rear aspect high deflection or insane deflection, I was shooting regardless. I might get a bullet or two into the enemy but most of them missed and I rarely shot anything down. Also, since I announced myself early by spraying bullet all over the place, I hardly got into a good position afterwards. Nowadays I fly mostly lag pursuit until I am in a good position with a low deflection angle. The P-51 is perfect to learn this since you cannot really do high deflection shots with your gyro sight anyways. Also its a lot easier to stay in lag pursuit with the more maneuverable P-51. The third thing in the list is 'press the trigger for a while'. I took me a while to realize that I have a lot of ammo with me and in contrast to shooters that thought me to do short bursts, the guns I have don't sway away to somewhere. At first I did only short bursts, looked where they went and tried to place another one. It works a lot better if you just keep the trigger pressed and let the enemy move through your stream of bullets. This only works if you are doing low deflection shooting and are already pretty close to hitting the enemy. Spraying by swaying all of your controls doesn't get you anywhere since you need way more than one bullet to get a kill.

 

The differences between the P-51 and Bf-109 here are: If you have a really good aim and happen to hit with the Mk-108, the fight is normally over. All the other benefits go to the P-51. You have the better gunsight, better forward visibility, tighter turn radius to get a good lead, better overall stability to keep your aim true and better overall visibility to keep your enemy in sight.

 

tl;dr; Both planes are awesome, fun to fight with and I make lots of kills with both.

 

-Mathias

The P-51 only out-turns the 109 over 20,000ft.

They seem fairly equal between 20-10, but below 10k the 109 has a small--but certain--advantage.