Bf 109 K-4 vs Fw 190 D-9 - Page 10 - ED Forums
 


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View Poll Results: Kurfurst or Dora
Bf 109 K-4 53 51.46%
Fw 190 D-9 50 48.54%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-18-2017, 04:10 PM   #91
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Yes, those pesky cannons.
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:27 PM   #92
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I like to use MP Air Quake servers for rapid dog-fight practise to hone gunnery skills on particular aircraft and hone aircraft, engine and energy management, including SA skills in a highly dynamic and pressured environment (also good for testing/experimenting new settings and combat manoeuvre techniques, particularly after patches/updates to flight models). Competing against AI is just kidding yourself in my book; if you intend to properly test yourself and get to know the limits of your fighter aircraft, one needs human opposition, lots of it and the better the Air Quake opposition pilots are the more one learns and improves. So, for me, Air Quake is all about practise for the real deal, which for me and most of the squads I fly with is about historically based WWII scenarios with and against human players on MP. Sad to say, I have come across snobbery towards Air Quake, but I find these MP servers are useful and have their place as much as any other type of server. The frustration I find with DCS at the moment is that we are waiting, waiting and waiting and trying to keep faith that DCS can deliver a WWII environment and appropriate plane set. I also like air racing, but 2 years of no Mustang racing series is also sad, but understandable due the state of flux DCS sim versions are in at the moment. So, 190 or 109? I don't know, but I do know there is some way to go to before we get some historically based WWII action servers (and not just with AI only flight models). It appears that there may be a lot of potential, but we just have to wait and see.

Happy landings,
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:28 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzU View Post
It just seems like I need to hit a plane a lot more times than what I see from the real fights in WW2.
So I really like this website. It's a bit "finger in the air" but they do compare results with official testing.

In short the test data that does exist seems to suggest that a single 20mm round is worth about 3 50 cal rounds. So the P-47 (with 8x .50 cals) should have about the same firepower as the FW 190 Dora (with 2x MG 151/20 and 2x MG 131). The P-51 having 6x .50 calls should obviously have about 3/4 the firepower. So if it takes a 1 second burst from the Dora to kill something, it should be about 1.3 seconds from the P-51. The Dora has less convergence issues than the P-51, so let's call it 1.5 seconds.

As someone who regularly flies both the Dora and the P-51, I'd say that IMO it's currently not anything remotely like that in game. Based purely on my experience I'd say it's more like 3 to 1 at the moment. In short, I think the .50 cals are about half as effective as they should be.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:19 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsk View Post
So I really like this website. It's a bit "finger in the air" but they do compare results with official testing.

In short the test data that does exist seems to suggest that a single 20mm round is worth about 3 50 cal rounds. So the P-47 (with 8x .50 cals) should have about the same firepower as the FW 190 Dora (with 2x MG 151/20 and 2x MG 131). The P-51 having 6x .50 calls should obviously have about 3/4 the firepower. So if it takes a 1 second burst from the Dora to kill something, it should be about 1.3 seconds from the P-51. The Dora has less convergence issues than the P-51, so let's call it 1.5 seconds.

As someone who regularly flies both the Dora and the P-51, I'd say that IMO it's currently not anything remotely like that in game. Based purely on my experience I'd say it's more like 3 to 1 at the moment. In short, I think the .50 cals are about half as effective as they should be.
MK 108 shells should be 10x more powerful than they are atm, comparing to .50 cals. Bare in mind that you cannot make a snapshot kill with .50 cal mounted on the wings.. unless your aiming is godlike.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:31 PM   #95
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At least with DCS we can finally settle, once and for all, the endless debate about which nation's fighters were the best. It was without a doubt Germany. Most aviation history buffs already know this, but nationalist bias is hard to overcome.

I have no doubt that the new damage model will make the P51 more competitive, but you have to remember that when the P51D entered service as a primarily high altitude escort fighter, the Allied aircraft outnumbered the Axis ones, 10 to 1.

I almost wish that the P51D gets all the upgrades that people are wishing for, it will still be eaten alive by the Dora in a 1 on 1 fight, all things being equal, including the pilot.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:36 PM   #96
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At least with DCS we can finally settle, once and for all, the endless debate about which nation's fighters were the best. It was without a doubt Germany. Most aviation history buffs already know this, but nationalist bias is hard to overcome.

I almost wish that the P51D gets all the upgrades that people are wishing for, it will still be eaten alive by the Dora in a 1 on 1 fight, all things being equal, including the pilot.
Not sure if serious.

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Old 04-19-2017, 05:16 PM   #97
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Hi gents,

here my 2 sence of gun DM/Hitpower of the different planes on air-targets, as i understand it without the nice side postet from Tomek, that i also like.

1. Bf109K-4 / (P-38, even when it is not there, but has guns in the nose )
2. Fw190D-9
3. Spitfire MKIX
4. P-51D

I think this is right even without looking on the gun power from the guns, only looking at the different location and settings.

So 109 is best as it is all located in the nose, with a gunsetting that point all the guns to one point 600m ahead of the plane. As all guns are in the nose and the distance between the guns is so small, smaller than a planebody, so it doesent matter if i open fire at close range or long range.

Same goes to the Fw190, even with the big guns in the wingroots, this guns are also so close to gether, that they will also hit the plane body at close range or long range, as long i know the lead i have to use to hit.

Third is spitfire, the zwitter, has the same problem than the P-51 wingmounten guns, but can compensate it as i had to learn on Cliffs of Dover . And the P-51 not. As i understand it the guns from spit are also pointed to one point 250 - 300 yards in front of the plane, So again we have guns centered to one point. This brings the spitfire in the position to open fire between 250 - 300 yards and for close range only aiming with one side of the winguns and than they have again a centerd gunfire with 1x 20mm and 4x .303 is like Bf109 with 20mm. But again it is centerd.

Last we have the P-51D also pointed the guns 1000 feet ahead of the plane but not centered, its a hitting box and this makes deflectionshots or one wing at close range shots less effective.

From my point of view is the change in a box system higher that we have more missing bullets as in a centered system. The P-51 could do it like the spit and aim with one wing but has still the probelm with the box system.

So even with out the the info from this side http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

it is clear that even the spit has the uper hand over the P-51 in this case. Even with 6x .50 call from P-51 in the wing of the spitfire the P-51 would loose against the spit in makeing DM. Center vs box system, center system will win. Box system makes it easyer to hit, because i am spraying, so the change is higher to hit, but with mutch less bullets than with the center system if i hit with center system.

If i now look at the side and look at the fighter/gun comparison and the time is needed to do a Fixed value damages, the P-51 loose, not because the gun power itselfe is so mutch lover than from 109/Fw190 and Spit its the box system as i get more bullets in time to a target in a centered system, all guns are aiming for the target at one point + the point that even at close range more bullets will hit the target than the box system. And for deflection shoots it is mutch worser also. For spit also but the center system makes it easyer.

Sorry this are long 2 sence

regards

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Old 04-19-2017, 08:34 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by OnlyforDCS View Post

I almost wish that the P51D gets all the upgrades that people are wishing for, it will still be eaten alive by the Dora in a 1 on 1 fight, all things being equal, including the pilot.
That wouldn't be historic. The P-51 has almost 5000 kills in WW2. It wasn't always because they had higher numbers in the fight. Sometimes it was the other way around.
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:39 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_D View Post
Hi gents,

here my 2 sence of gun DM/Hitpower of the different planes on air-targets, as i understand it without the nice side postet from Tomek, that i also like.

1. Bf109K-4 / (P-38, even when it is not there, but has guns in the nose )
2. Fw190D-9
3. Spitfire MKIX
4. P-51D

I think this is right even without looking on the gun power from the guns, only looking at the different location and settings.

So 109 is best as it is all located in the nose, with a gunsetting that point all the guns to one point 600m ahead of the plane. As all guns are in the nose and the distance between the guns is so small, smaller than a planebody, so it doesent matter if i open fire at close range or long range.

Same goes to the Fw190, even with the big guns in the wingroots, this guns are also so close to gether, that they will also hit the plane body at close range or long range, as long i know the lead i have to use to hit.

Third is spitfire, the zwitter, has the same problem than the P-51 wingmounten guns, but can compensate it as i had to learn on Cliffs of Dover . And the P-51 not. As i understand it the guns from spit are also pointed to one point 250 - 300 yards in front of the plane, So again we have guns centered to one point. This brings the spitfire in the position to open fire between 250 - 300 yards and for close range only aiming with one side of the winguns and than they have again a centerd gunfire with 1x 20mm and 4x .303 is like Bf109 with 20mm. But again it is centerd.

Last we have the P-51D also pointed the guns 1000 feet ahead of the plane but not centered, its a hitting box and this makes deflectionshots or one wing at close range shots less effective.

From my point of view is the change in a box system higher that we have more missing bullets as in a centered system. The P-51 could do it like the spit and aim with one wing but has still the probelm with the box system.

So even with out the the info from this side http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

it is clear that even the spit has the uper hand over the P-51 in this case. Even with 6x .50 call from P-51 in the wing of the spitfire the P-51 would loose against the spit in makeing DM. Center vs box system, center system will win. Box system makes it easyer to hit, because i am spraying, so the change is higher to hit, but with mutch less bullets than with the center system if i hit with center system.

If i now look at the side and look at the fighter/gun comparison and the time is needed to do a Fixed value damages, the P-51 loose, not because the gun power itselfe is so mutch lover than from 109/Fw190 and Spit its the box system as i get more bullets in time to a target in a centered system, all guns are aiming for the target at one point + the point that even at close range more bullets will hit the target than the box system. And for deflection shoots it is mutch worser also. For spit also but the center system makes it easyer.

Sorry this are long 2 sence

regards

Little_D
I'm not sure about this and if it was done but, do all the guns have to set at the same convergence? That would up the odds of hitting at different ranges.
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Old 04-19-2017, 08:43 PM   #100
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That wouldn't be historic. The P-51 has almost 5000 kills in WW2. It wasn't always because they had higher numbers in the fight. Sometimes it was the other way around.
Not sure that is the best number to throw out, how many kills did the 109 have in WWII? I thought I heard some crazy number like 30,000... but I have no source I am sure someone knowns or will look it up now though
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