if you do not want to break your neck to check your six in VR - Page 5 - ED Forums
 


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Old 02-13-2020, 05:00 PM   #41
Der Hirte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman109 View Post
Again, disagree - I use Monster mounts on the left/right just as you describe, with a swivel chair. ...
I too use deskmounts and have them next to my thigh, my right thigh touches the stick base even when looking just slightly and leaning towards my right wing. Widen the distance between your controls so you have a few more degrees to swivel. And maybe get fitter.
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:51 AM   #42
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I hotkey that turns the camera 180° while pressed, should already help alot *wink ED*


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Old 02-14-2020, 10:02 AM   #43
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Two snapviews to the rear - one left and one right are all that's needed. This can then be mapped to the left and right actions on a hat switch, like the VR Zoom modes.


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Old 02-14-2020, 12:01 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_sukebe View Post
Taking the Russian pragmatic approach, a swivel chair...
Exactly what I do.

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Old 02-14-2020, 02:54 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman109 View Post
At 4:30 to 5:30 the F16 pilot the video I posted is doing exactly what you're claiming is oh so difficult - while not easy, it isn't all that hard either.
He is not pulling high G (8-10G). Look at the turning rate instead vapor. He is pulling medium G (4-7G).

Quote:
Especially look at 4:48 to 4:55, the vapor coming off the plane is huge (high G obviously), and the pilot is turning not just his head, but using his non stick arm (left) to help pull himself around to look right back at the F15 across the circle (way across, he's in the rear quarter).
Yes, but still low-medium G.
And you can clearly see that he has same limitation as VR has. I can look easily my 7'clock and 5'clock in fixed seat doing exactly that same thing. And I use Rift S that has narrowest FOV among top VR HMD.

And if I assist with my other hand to turn in chair, I can see very well nearly to the six a clock.



He ain't looking six a clock, but more at his 4'clock high. Very easy to do with Rift S without problems.



Again, target is at his 7'clock, and easy to look that much with Rift S as you turn your shoulders like he does and you turn your head to look at the 8'clock position just like he does.

Why does he turn his head so much? Because he can't use his peripheral vision to see the fighter, he needs to get at least his left eye fovea on the target. That is same limitation as in VR. You can't see sharply and spot things, estimate distances etc with your peripheral vision.

If you can at all twist your upper body in your chair by that 20 degree and get your side of turn shoulder to chair back seat, you can look at your six. In VR with Rift S I can look my 8'clock and 4'clock without twisting at all my body. If I move my shoulders like he does, I can look straight to my six a clock. But it is not easy middle of fight if you don't have chair that supports you (I have).

Quote:
For VR to be truly realistic, it needs to take into account peripheral vision, which it does NOT right now. The eye chart linked shows the degrees in red that peripheral vision can be used, and it certainly can't be in any of the VR headsets I've tried/own (all of them). That won't make using VR "easy", certainly not as easy as the TrackIr cheaters, but it'll make it more competitive with them, as you won't have to spin in your chair and point your VR unit/head almost directly at your rear to see your rear quarter, you'll be able to see into your rear quarter past your 3 to 9 line just as the F16 pilot does throughout his BFM fight with the F15 in the above video.
I can see in to both rear quarters (up to 4'clock and 8'clock) without turning anything in my body. But in real life I can't reverse a car without either looking rear mirror or actually shifting my body so I have clear view through rear window, and that means to see directly my six'clock. And that same thing I need to do with Rift S, not less, not more.

Without turning my body, I can see in my peripheral vision to my six'clock. But that is only good that unless there is something very clear contrast behind the rear window, like a another car rear light, I can't make out distance or is there a person wearing a black jacket or a black car.

Why it is super handy to be able just place a right hand to rear of the side seat and twist body to actually see through rear window.

We can play this thing forever. Fighter pilots do not have special eyes. They do not have anything special in their helmets or cockpits etc. It is same thing as if you would sit in a convertible and driving in a parking slot around and parking car between cars etc. You need to move your body if you want to see your six'clock.

Here is the comparison for you to do.

In F-16 and Rift S, I can without twisting my body or shifting weight, turn my head and look to my right so that I see past the AIM-120 tail fins by good amount of degrees.
If I shift my weight like in your video the pilot does, and same way place my right shoulder to the chair, I can look to my six'clock. The chair is blocking my view actually, and I need to move my head backwards (to my left side) so I can see past the chair.
But doing this normal very slight body shift movement, I can see about 10 degree past the vertical tailfin. I can literally see clearly by turning from right side to about 6:30. And If I look upwards, again like in your video, I can see 7'clock.

I can't ask more than that in VR. As I am not going to look to my left by looking to my right.
The only place where I can't see in VR, is behind the fuselage.

If I shift my weight in chair (move my arse) like the pilot does, I can all day along sit very slightly sideways and be looking past my vertical tailfin.

I can't ask anything more than that.

BUT. I am not experience any G forces. I am nicely sitting in my flight room, in my own build flight chair, build from specs of F/A-18C and Su-27S (mixture, as I like both). So I can't even tilt my head so much further back or twist shoulders because the chair is much more high angle attitude than on F-16 seat is (and is easier to look at your six).

Yes the VR does have "blinders" like a horse would have. But they are nowhere near my fovea in limits. Meaning I can't see perfectly sharp outside the Rift S FOV.

Does that "blinders" affect to visuality? Yes. It is experience that you have narrower FOV than without.

Does that "blinders" affect to capability to look, see and track a fighter directly my six'clock (or even past my six'clock)? No. I don't need special swivel chair. I don't need to reset my view, I don't need to do anything special than just twist my shoulders so that I can look by six'clock.

Is it comfortable to do so? No, but if I use my another hand to support my twist by lifting arse slightly, just like in your video does the pilot do, it is not a problem. This as well means that I can far more easily look around my left side, than my right side, because I hold the stick with my right hand. But anyways I sometimes do grab stick with my left hand and use my right hand to shift body when I am needed to look to my six through my right side.

But maybe here is the main real difference. I train my upper body. I don't have back issues, I don't have neck issues, I don't have eye issues.

When I fly and I want to check my six.... There is two way for that.

1) Wingman that's job is to check the other wingman six is there for that.
2) I perform random turns to take a really good look that what is happening at the rear.

Because I can't keep flying straight and level and see around, the fuselage blocks the view.

The TrackIR is cheating that you can so easily just turn your camera around the cockpit and it automatically moves your virtual head position past the chair etc. That you can check your six even 3 times a second with just very slight head turning. Something that no real pilot would be doing.

And this is all with the Rift S, again, the narrowest FOV of the all when compared to Reverb, Index, Pimax, XTAL etc etc...

Do you know how easy it is to look my six'clock with Reverb and Index? As difficult... It is not easier. The only real difference is that I can see well past my Six'clock than with Rift S.

Do those offer the clear benefits? No....
Do those offer better immersion? Yes...

And how so? Because the "blinders" effect is smaller. So you are far more "in there" than with Rift S.

https://youtu.be/Ne0cmvl8GqM?t=771

It really is nothing more than nitpicking that someone sees a "blinders" in their extreme peripheral vision when using something like the top VR HMD's offers, as none of those are denying flight simulators to be such that virtual pilot can check their six and track something even past their six'clock. Meaning their whole upper hemisphere is completely visible to be look at, only the aircraft to be piloted is placing the real restrictions.
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Old 02-14-2020, 03:39 PM   #46
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Gave my TrackIR away along time ago. Haven't missed it at all....
DCS in VR is now my free chiropractic therapy, more flexibility, less creaking, better life... DCS + VR = healthy exercise!
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Old 02-14-2020, 04:38 PM   #47
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Fri13 - even IF all of that is correct, it's jumping all over from my original point which is this: Using VR in DCS means you have to turn your head position far more than you do in R/L due to peripheral vision, in order to see the same spot in your rear area/quarter/6oclock.


This is easily provable, I'll put up a video showing this, or you can do it yourself. I'll use all 3 different VR units I have while doing so. Take off the headset, put your hand inside where your face is so it doesn't deactivate, and point it at the same place the pilot's head is in my 2nd example. Look at your monitor screen, and see how far into your 6 area you can see on the monitor screen in DCS. Case closed. In r/l the pilot is seeing the F15 in the picture from the Youtube video I posted, easily. In DCS with the VR headset pointed in the same spot, this is impossible (again, due to you not being able to look beyond the limit of the VR headset using peripheral vision).


I look into my 6 all the time using the Reverb, I've never once said I can't or don't, my point is that you have to turn the VR headset/head/body far more than you do in reality (again, peripheral vision) in order to do so, which then gives TrackIR users a big advantage in speed/easiness of doing the same in PvP combat online.


Also, since when is 7 G "low to medium" G. That F16 is doing VERY hard pulls, all while looking into his rear quarter as I said. Hell the Hornet is limited to 7(.5).
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Old 02-14-2020, 05:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gman109 View Post
Fri13 - even IF all of that is correct, it's jumping all over from my original point which is this: Using VR in DCS means you have to turn your head position far more than you do in R/L due to peripheral vision, in order to see the same spot in your rear area/quarter/6oclock.


This is easily provable, I'll put up a video showing this, or you can do it yourself. I'll use all 3 different VR units I have while doing so. Take off the headset, put your hand inside where your face is so it doesn't deactivate, and point it at the same place the pilot's head is in my 2nd example. Look at your monitor screen, and see how far into your 6 area you can see on the monitor screen in DCS. Case closed. In r/l the pilot is seeing the F15 in the picture from the Youtube video I posted, easily. In DCS with the VR headset pointed in the same spot, this is impossible (again, due to you not being able to look beyond the limit of the VR headset using peripheral vision).


I look into my 6 all the time using the Reverb, I've never once said I can't or don't, my point is that you have to turn the VR headset/head/body far more than you do in reality (again, peripheral vision) in order to do so, which then gives TrackIR users a big advantage in speed/easiness of doing the same in PvP combat online.


Also, since when is 7 G "low to medium" G. That F16 is doing VERY hard pulls, all while looking into his rear quarter as I said. Hell the Hornet is limited to 7(.5).
I think you're spot on about everything. That's one of the reasons I liked the Pimax5K+. The added FoV. But for me, clarity of Reverb made me not miss the wider FoV. So it's a choice one can make.

When more VR optimization and better hardware is available in the next year or two, the wider FoV at much higher resolution would make this problem a moot point.

But using logical tricks like snapviews and over rotation would make us air sick quickly. The distortion of snapviews will be nauseating for most of us, I believe.
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:06 PM   #49
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Maybe kicking open doors in:
You simply can not judge the g-force by looking at condensation.

Condensation occurs when the relative humidity of air reaches 100%.
The relative humidity increases when air is cooled down. At some point you reach 100% and condensation occurs creating ”cloud”.

For a given day, the humidity is higher at higher altitude, and a 4G loop might not cause condensation in the entry of the loop but it might do this in the top of the loop, being higher up in the atmosphere.

In a very dry atmosphere, like summer in Afghanistan(been there, done that) you can break the wings without seeing any condensation.

In a cold moisty autumn day there might be that much moist in the air that you create trails on a steady 1G approach.

= You can not judge IRL G-load from condensation from aerodynamic surfaces creating lift.
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Old 02-14-2020, 07:18 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnars Driver View Post
Maybe kicking open doors in:
You simply can not judge the g-force by looking at condensation.

Condensation occurs when the relative humidity of air reaches 100%.
The relative humidity increases when air is cooled down. At some point you reach 100% and condensation occurs creating ”cloud”.

For a given day, the humidity is higher at higher altitude, and a 4G loop might not cause condensation in the entry of the loop but it might do this in the top of the loop, being higher up in the atmosphere.

In a very dry atmosphere, like summer in Afghanistan(been there, done that) you can break the wings without seeing any condensation.

In a cold moisty autumn day there might be that much moist in the air that you create trails on a steady 1G approach.

= You can not judge IRL G-load from condensation from aerodynamic surfaces creating lift.

I don't disagree, you're right - but look at the video, and tell me if you think that F16 pilot is just doing "low to medium" pulls based on every other factor you can see, besides the vapor. Look at the shudder of the airframe, etc, and the rate at which the plane is turning relative to what you can see outside of the canopy for reference. He's BFM fighting an F15, those aren't "low to medium" pulls/turns. It's irrelevant to the argument anyway, I only brought it up because others claimed it was "too difficult" for pilots in real life to check their rear quarter/6 while pulling G, which is complete nonsense.


-Gunnars, when were you in Afghanistan? I was there a few times in the mid to late 2000s as well (worked for a couple PMCs then).
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