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Emergency restart - what am I doing wrong?


latearrival

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Hi.

 

I'm having trouble restarting a single engine and I'm wondering if it's something I'm doing wrong or if it's a bug (or a side-effect of not having a split throttle or idle detents - I'm using a CH throttle).

 

Here's what I'm doing and what happens:

 

1. Simulate left engine failure by pulling the left T-handle. Push T-handle back in once left engine off.

 

2. Move left throttle to off (left throttle backwards over the detent).

 

3. Descend to below 15,000 feet (not sure why this is required) EDIT: and set APU Gen to PWR.

 

4. Move right throttle to max.

 

5. Left Engine Op switch to 'Motor'.

 

6. *Try* and restart left engine by setting left throttle to idle (left throttle

forwards over detent) but I can't. The left throttle will not move from its 'off' position. What am I doing wrong?!

 

7. Out of curiosity, I then turn my right engine off by pulling the right throttle back over the detent. I can move the right throttle back and forwards over the detent with no problem.

 

8. I then try and move the left throttle forwards again. over the detent, and this time it works. Hmmmm.

 

I've attached a track. As I don't have a split throttle or detent on my throttle I have to use key commands when I want to operate the left and right throttle independently.

 

Cheers!

emergency restart problem.trk


Edited by latearrival
added "and set APU Gen to PWR"

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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If you've only got the one throttle, then in step #4 you're really moving both throttles to max, yes? The in-game left throttle won't move (since it's notionally in the 'off' position), but the game will see its input as being at max. You can verify that by hitting RCtrl+Enter in-game to show the controller state window.

 

If that's the case, then you won't be able to move the left throttle from off into idle. You can verify this behaviour during a ramp-start if you like: put your throttle controller all the way forward, then try to start either engine using the key commands. They'll be ignored since your controller's throttle isn't in the idle position.

 

I think your best bet would be to start up the APU and then perform a normal start (you might want to motor the engine to get its temperature down, and possibly put it in IGN for a bit to make sure there's no residual fuel left). You'll need to temporarily put the throttle in the idle position to achieve this, and ideally keep it their until the engine is started - but that assumes you can afford to 'coast' for a while.

 

Alternatively, you could check if there's key commands for controlling individual throttles. I think that if you leave your HOTAS throttle in a set position, and then start using key commands, the most recent input (i.e. the key commands) will override the current position of the throttle. May or may not work, but might be worth a shot. Again, the RCtrl+Enter thing will let you check how the game thinks of this.

 

I'm not any good at restarting procedures, but I think the '15,000 feet' thing is actually the minimum altitude you need to do a windmill start using your other engine? You need a lot of speed to be able to start an engine using that method, and the only way to keep that speed in the A-10 is to be in a dive. At least, that's my recollection. I may be wrong there. I always use the APU to restart an engine in-flight. Edit: actually this is probably just relating to air density required to get the engine/APU running.


Edited by nomdeplume
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The throttle in the sim will not go to idle if your joystick throttle is not there. I set it up on axis so if a press a bottom and move my joystick throttle it moves left or right engine (depending on the button I press) Also, you do not need to motor the engine, just place right engine above 85% N2 or core (85 to 100) and place left throttle to idle and it should start. I did not looked at your track but that should work. Let me know if it doesn't or if you need further clarification.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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If you've only got the one throttle, then in step #4 you're really moving both throttles to max, yes?

 

I leave the physical throttle wherever it is and use key commands to move the left/right throttle independently.

 

But I think my problem lies with what you and mvsgas have both kindly pointed out - my physical throttle is not all the way back and so the left in-sim throttle is not going to off. I'll go back to the sim and check what rctrl+enter tells me.

 

Re the 15,000 feet thing, this is as per p588 of the manual ("When below 15,000 ft AGL, move the APU power switch to the PWR position") under APU restart.


Edited by latearrival
clarified to "physical throttle"

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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The throttle in the sim will not go to idle if your joystick throttle is not there. I set it up on axis so if a press a bottom and move my joystick throttle it moves left or right engine (depending on the button I press)

I understand. One question about your workaround though - you still aren't able to move either sim throttle from off to idle if your physical throttle is not all the way back, right?

 

Also, you do not need to motor the engine, just place right engine above 85% N2 or core (85 to 100) and place left throttle to idle and it should start.

I'll give that a go and see what happens. This doesn't seem to correspond to an APU start or a windmill start - would it work in real life mvs?

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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I understand. One question about your workaround though - you still aren't able to move either sim throttle from off to idle if your physical throttle is not all the way back, right?

 

 

I'll give that a go and see what happens. This doesn't seem to correspond to an APU start or a windmill start - would it work in real life mvs?

 

If you set up control like I said it should work. The physical throttle will be at idle. Think about it.

Lets say Right engine is out. I pres the button to control right throttle and move throttle to idle. Only the right throttle moves within the sim.

 

I have no idea if it will work in RL, I'm just a mechanic, and a bad one at that. I know I have done it before. The engine running should generate enough bleed air to spin dead engine.

 

Hope this helps.

Just a side note; I use a MS Sidewinder Pro, this thing is 10 years old. I can't do precise movements with it and it has a lot of free play but I fly just the same. Cheap and reliable and I do not have to program it every time I get into another sim like some of this guys with expensive ones. I just set up four buttons as modifiers and I get every control I want in DCS A-10, BS FC1 and FC2 just saying. :D:joystick:

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Thanks for your help guys. Solved!

 

For anyone else having the same problem, I highly recommend using RCtrl-Enter so you can see what the sim thinks the throttles are set to. This is what I learnt:

 

1. If you don't move your physical throttle, you can use the keyboard to move (in-sim) both left and right throttle independently.

 

2. However, once you move the physical throttle again the in-sim throttles get set to the same position as your physical throttle.

 

3. The exception to (2) is when an in-sim throttle is off (behind the detent) - in this case moving the physical throttle has no effect (because of the detent) on the in-sim throttle (it stays behind the detent).

 

4. As both NDP and MVS said, the physical throttle has to be all the way back before the sim will let you set either sim throttle from off to idle. For my emergency restart of the left engine, this meant I had to move the physical throttle all the way back (which put my working right engine to idle, the hog now coasting) before I was able to move the left in-sim throttle to idle.

 

5. MVS - your shortcut method worked perfectly. I ignored all the instructions in the manual and just used the keyboard to move the left throttle (the inoperative engine) to idle - the left engine started up. Felt too easy!

 

If you don't have a split throttle, here's the full emergency procedure that worked for me:

 

1. Simulate left engine failure by pulling the left T-handle. Push T-handle back in once left engine off.

 

2. Use keyboard to move left throttle to off (left throttle backwards over the detent).

 

3. Descend to below 15,000 feet and set APU Gen to PWR.

 

4. Use keyboard to move right throttle to max.

 

5. Set Left Engine Op switch to 'Motor'.

 

6. Move physical throttle all the way back - your hog will now be coasting because your working right engine will be set to idle.

 

7. Use keyboard to set left throttle to idle (left throttle forwards over the detent). Left engine should now begin its start-up cycle.

 

8. Use keyboard to set right throttle to max while you wait for the left engine to complete its start-up.

 

9. Set Left Engine Op switch to 'Normal'.

 

10. Set APU Gen to off.

 

(Page 588 of the manual says to reengage the SAS switches too, but mine never disengaged).

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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Why are you turning APU on? not questioning just wondering

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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@mvsgas - questioning and wondering are all good with me!

 

I'm switching the APU Generator Power switch on because the single engine restart procedure on Page 588 of the manual says:

 

"When below 15,000 ft AGL, move the APU power switch to the PWR position"

 

The instructions don't say anything about starting the APU.

 

I don't know enough about how this aircraft works (or any, for that matter) to know when the manual is right or wrong or why it is telling me to do something - for now, I just do what it says and hope!

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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I will bring that up. Does not make since and I believe your might be confusing the meaning. Please understand I'm not correcting you, the manual does not make since in that section. APU Gen moves with APU gearbox (AFAIK, hopefully Paulkii will correct me) Placing the PWR switch to on does nothing if APU is not running, the way I understand the system. It might be talking about starting APU, that makes since to help the running engine start the dead one but I have done a start without it. Let me make a track. Be back in a bit.

Edit

Keep in mind I not sure how is suppose to work. RL or otherwise. Meaning Actual by the book operation.


Edited by mvsgas

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Ok here, not sure if this proper of if it mirrors the RL in any way, again, just a mechanic :D

Two starts above 15,000 feet. Left Eng, I just moved throttle to off ( which by the way would be a lot better way to simulate engine problems) Right eng, pulled fire handle and third Both engine.

I hope this helps

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Per the 1A-10C-1CL-1

 

SINGLE-ENGINE RESTART

1. Throttle (afected engine) - OFF

2. APU - START (below 15,000 feet MSL).

3. APU generator switch - PWR

4. Throttle (operating engine) - MAX

5. Engine operation switch (affected engine) - MOTOR

6. Inoperative engine - START

7. Engine operate switch (affected engine) - NORM

 

If restart is unsuccessful:

8. Throttle (affected engine) - OFF

9. Crossfeed - As required

10. Refure to Single Engine Landing

 

If Restart is sussessful:

8. SAS switches - ENGAGE

9. Crossfeed - As required

10. Anti-skid- ENGAGE

END

 

-------------------------------------------------

It takes between 6,000 and 8,000 feed in steep dive (at least 30 degree angle) with power off to gain windmill airstart speed from normal cruise speeds. If assistd start is unsuccessful, then windmill start may be attempted, proved inoperative engine shows no signs of seizure of orther damate. ITT will rapidly fall to 150 degrees C or below as airspeed increases.

 

WINDMILL AIRSTART

Windmiss airstart is not recommended. However, if necessary:

1. Place aircraft in a dive to obtain and/or maintain sufficient windmill start airspeed

2. Bleed air switch - OFF

3. Crossfeed switch - CROSSFEED

 

When ITT below 150 degree C and inside the windmill start envelope:

4. Throttle(s) - MAX

5. Engine operate switch(es) affected engine(s) - IGN

END

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Thanks Paul

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Hot, humid, mosquito infested...nothing has change :D

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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2. APU - START (below 15,000 feet MSL).

3. APU generator switch - PWR

 

Thanks paulrkii. The manual is missing the APU start.

 

@mvsgas. Perhaps it is a bug that all you need to do to restart a single engine in the sim is to move the affected throttle to idle and wait?

 

EDIT: And should the procedure look like this?

 

"If Restart is successful:

9. APU generator switch - OFF

8. APU - OFF

10. SAS switches - ENGAGE

11. Crossfeed - As required

12. Anti-skid- ENGAGE"


Edited by latearrival

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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Not sure bud. Paulkii is more qualified to know

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Hot, humid, mosquito infested...nothing has change :D

 

And banana spiders all over I'm sure....always was afraid one was going to crawl out from under the seat when I would be sitting in the pit....

 

On the subject of the manual, I input a "bug" report to hopefully fix the manual.

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@paulrkii. Thank you. One last thing though - mvsgas pointed out (and attached a track in post #11) that, in-sim, all that is required to restart an engine is to move its throttle to idle. Is this a bug too?

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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Yes, if you don't have to start the APU to get the engine started in the air it's a bug...

 

Thank you for confirming.

 

@mvsgas - given that you have all the evidence, I assume you're able and willing to submit a bug report :)

Windows 10 | i5 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | MSI GTX 970 4GB | 8GB RAM | ASRock P67 Extreme4 | Seasonic X-Series 650W PSU | Oculus Rift DK2 | CH Fighterstick, Throttle & Pedals

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We are working on Mom :D just playing...but we are working on it

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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  • 1 year later...

Brining this back to life. I accidently shut down an engine the other day, of course I didnt train for this so I came in here and found a few threads, this one in particular seemed more informative. I wound up printing up a few of the procedures listed here and spent quite a few hours trying to get an engine started without success. I manage to get the RPM up enough that the hydraulic pressure is up but still in the red zone, but I never get the engine lit off, temp stays the same without increase. I dont know if your supposed to, but I never see any fuel flow to the inoperative engine Im using a Cougar Hotas, so I am using the keyboard as instructed here for throttle off, Idle etc. Does anyone know if there is a youtube tutorial on this, I cant find one? Thanks :joystick:

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  • 6 months later...
Brining this back to life. I accidently shut down an engine the other day, of course I didnt train for this so I came in here and found a few threads, this one in particular seemed more informative. I wound up printing up a few of the procedures listed here and spent quite a few hours trying to get an engine started without success. I manage to get the RPM up enough that the hydraulic pressure is up but still in the red zone, but I never get the engine lit off, temp stays the same without increase. I dont know if your supposed to, but I never see any fuel flow to the inoperative engine Im using a Cougar Hotas, so I am using the keyboard as instructed here for throttle off, Idle etc. Does anyone know if there is a youtube tutorial on this, I cant find one? Thanks :joystick:

 

This is an old thread so sorry if it doesn't need to be brought back up. Also, there are other tutorials that I think I've seen but I did one the other day that is kind of rough. Maybe it could help.

 

 

One thing on the APU restart is that I've never had it restart the first time. I'm not sure if there is a step backwards in the manual or if I'm just doing it wrong but after starting the APU I'll motor the engine operating switch then set the throttle to idle and flip the engine operating switch back to NORM. Nothing happens until I set the throttle back to off then back to idle. I'll almost always get an engine restart at that point.

 

The windmill has always been effective for me. I've yet to get it to not work even when I failed to set my throttle to idle before holding the Engine Op switch to ignite. I had to level off once at about 1,000 feet or lower and then noticed the throttle was off. I set it to idle, hit ignite, and got engine start.

 

Good luck.

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i7-8700, 32 GB DDR4 3000, GTX 1080 TI 11GB, 240 GB SSD, 2TB HDD, Dual (sometimes Triple) monitor, TM Warthog HOTAS, Saitek Pro Combat Pedals, TrackIR

 

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  • 5 years later...
Thanks for your help guys. Solved!

 

For anyone else having the same problem, I highly recommend using RCtrl-Enter so you can see what the sim thinks the throttles are set to. This is what I learnt:

 

1. If you don't move your physical throttle, you can use the keyboard to move (in-sim) both left and right throttle independently.

 

2. However, once you move the physical throttle again the in-sim throttles get set to the same position as your physical throttle.

 

3. The exception to (2) is when an in-sim throttle is off (behind the detent) - in this case moving the physical throttle has no effect (because of the detent) on the in-sim throttle (it stays behind the detent).

 

4. As both NDP and MVS said, the physical throttle has to be all the way back before the sim will let you set either sim throttle from off to idle. For my emergency restart of the left engine, this meant I had to move the physical throttle all the way back (which put my working right engine to idle, the hog now coasting) before I was able to move the left in-sim throttle to idle.

 

5. MVS - your shortcut method worked perfectly. I ignored all the instructions in the manual and just used the keyboard to move the left throttle (the inoperative engine) to idle - the left engine started up. Felt too easy!

 

If you don't have a split throttle, here's the full emergency procedure that worked for me:

 

1. Simulate left engine failure by pulling the left T-handle. Push T-handle back in once left engine off.

 

2. Use keyboard to move left throttle to off (left throttle backwards over the detent).

 

3. Descend to below 15,000 feet and set APU Gen to PWR.

 

4. Use keyboard to move right throttle to max.

 

5. Set Left Engine Op switch to 'Motor'.

 

6. Move physical throttle all the way back - your hog will now be coasting because your working right engine will be set to idle.

 

7. Use keyboard to set left throttle to idle (left throttle forwards over the detent). Left engine should now begin its start-up cycle.

 

8. Use keyboard to set right throttle to max while you wait for the left engine to complete its start-up.

 

9. Set Left Engine Op switch to 'Normal'.

 

10. Set APU Gen to off.

 

(Page 588 of the manual says to reengage the SAS switches too, but mine never disengaged).

 

 

Thanks for this. Im having the same issue, i.e. single throttle and assumed idle conflict...

 

I was testing exhausively on emergency engine restart (APU/motor) and have to say it is frustrating and basically unreliable. Even with your checklist I managed to start only on occasion.

 

Is there still update support for the DCS A-10C product? I would like to see this fixed. I would be happy to test or support with any tweak.

 

Cheers, Scub.

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