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Serious Deviation between game and real ka50 flight model


Migow

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hi it feels weird but i found docs about ka50 Aerobatic Flight :cold:

 

five docs to read

 

ERF1998-vol1-AD05.pdf

 

64.pdf

 

burtsev_soosniy_nesuschiy_vint.pdf

 

ERF1998-vol1-AD04.pdf

 

ERF-1999-G22.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

simple , the simulated ka50 doesn't not match the real one:(

in all version of game since BS 1 /2 , DCSworld 1/2/2.1

(it was even worse in BS1 )

in forward flight 9800kg 20°C 50 meter msl 760mmhg

irl first at 300 tas km/h rotor minimal clearance is 850mm irl almost 2/3 clearance , in game at 280km/h it looks like less than 100mm , about to collide

 

irl :

at 0 km/h clearance is 1400mm

at 300km/h clearance 850mm

700mm at 320km/h

dive can be done at 390 km/h rotor blade tip reach 1.0 mach

 

in game also 90/80° flat turn at 220 km/h seems impossible (can be done at 180 km/h)

 

check clearancies at 45° , 107°

 

kamov consider more than 500mm clearance safe , all maneuvries at worst go close to 500 mm clearance ,

the real one is far safer at high speed , more agile, this is very serious deviation , we dont talk about 10% deviation:( , we have 850% deviation just in forward speed

,irl when we include maneuvries we still get minimal 500 mm clearance at 300 km/h

in game you crash

 

this why we broke the rotor so easy , when it should not , and why the alarm is useless in game, IRL it is very safe at high speed , we are flying a complete crippled different machine :(

 

kamov use ULISS6 (ULYSS6?) mathematic model , in worst case they have less than 100mm clearance deviation they underestimate the clearance, irl it is safer^^

 

i guess ED don't use uliss6 the deviation are massive between uliss6 and ed :(

 

summary , the flight model is seriously flawed , irl and game is like complete different beast:doh:

in game we have a crippled helicopter , unsafe as hell that can't go fast and maneuver safely

 

need official answer about that :3


Edited by Fifou265

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Interesting read, thanks for sharing!

Can you attach some screenshots from your described observations?

___________________________________________

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Looking forward to it, Belsimtek!:thumbup:

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FYI: In-game the Ka-50 can dive at +/-450km/h and get out of the dive in 1 piece !

 

Still, nice find !

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Interesting read, thanks for sharing!

Can you attach some screenshots from your described observations?

 

it is hard to get both rotor at good position on screenshot ,better a video

do it by yourself you will see with good point of view how close they are in game :thumbup:

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FYI: In-game the Ka-50 can dive at +/-450km/h and get out of the dive in 1 piece !

 

Still, nice find !

 

 

 

Indeed, there is very little that stands in the way of this chopper's need to prosecute its target. Once this machine is truly understood, then and only then can one can truly understands the term "use of weapon"!

 

 

Work is required... collective dropped in the corner, massive and fast pedal work rolling out of the climb...it does not come automatically but all axis must be controlled to perfection!


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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When the devs are silent.. means they goofed bad.

 

Or perhaps modifying the flight dynamics of an ancient module like the Ka-50 isn't a priority at this stage? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an update to a feature complete module released 6 years ago.

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It's a simulation, not a real life 100% comparison. The FM might be off, but the world simulation is also off, wind is constant, temperatures do not differ from place to place and the effects of clouds, fogs and such are also non-existent.

 

The document you're referring to are about aerobatics and theoretical calculations, not about a heavily loaded attack helicopter about to enter a warzone.

 

The FM may be off when compared to the RL documents you provided but keep in mind that the BS1 and BS2 where modelled after only one airframe which was in a prototype stage at that time, a lot has changed for the KA-50 in the years, as well as its flight model.

 

As Phibes stated, I don't think you'll see an update on the KA50 with regards to FM anytime soon. First we have the merge into DCS 2.5 and F-18, after that all bets are off..

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It's a simulation, not a real life 100% comparison. The FM might be off, but the world simulation is also off, wind is constant, temperatures do not differ from place to place and the effects of clouds, fogs and such are also non-existent.

 

The document you're referring to are about aerobatics and theoretical calculations, not about a heavily loaded attack helicopter about to enter a warzone.

 

The FM may be off when compared to the RL documents you provided but keep in mind that the BS1 and BS2 where modelled after only one airframe which was in a prototype stage at that time, a lot has changed for the KA-50 in the years, as well as its flight model.

 

As Phibes stated, I don't think you'll see an update on the KA50 with regards to FM anytime soon. First we have the merge into DCS 2.5 and F-18, after that all bets are off..

 

Indeed. Compare this to the cars we buy ...

 

http://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/fuels-environment/official-fuel-consumption-figures

 

There is always a commercial aspect to these figures.

 

FC

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Don't expect anything on this module anymore. I can't remember the last time the dev corrected something on it, but it's kinda happening once every 2 or 3 years, and only because they broke something in the patch, not because they are adding something.

Agree with Looney, I am happy if the module is behaving correctly in normal combat conditions and not during crazy stunts where computation of the aerodynamics involved might take a bit too much off our consumer level CPUs. The Ka50 is an awesome module, the level of system design is incredible and you can spend weeks just to learn the intricacies of the ABRIS alone.

Very good documents by the way. Thanks for sharing.

I think you should start looking for something similar for the Mi24 and start talking ahead of time to the Belsimtek devs. You won't get answers from ED on the Ka50.

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It's a simulation, not a real life 100% comparison. The FM might be off, but the world simulation is also off, wind is constant, temperatures do not differ from place to place and the effects of clouds, fogs and such are also non-existent.

 

The document you're referring to are about aerobatics and theoretical calculations, not about a heavily loaded attack helicopter about to enter a warzone.

 

The FM may be off when compared to the RL documents you provided but keep in mind that the BS1 and BS2 where modelled after only one airframe which was in a prototype stage at that time, a lot has changed for the KA-50 in the years, as well as its flight model.

 

As Phibes stated, I don't think you'll see an update on the KA50 with regards to FM anytime soon. First we have the merge into DCS 2.5 and F-18, after that all bets are off..

 

this is not simulation when you have 850% deviation ,

on clearance there are completly off , i can't believe it.

to get this kind of deviation ,mathematical is seriously wrong, when you have small deviation you can fix with hack , but here?

the data are based on real flight not only theoretical calculations .

airframe is from 89 it is the same the standard production.

game should nearly match in standard condition...

helicopter is in normal combat loadout 9800kg mass in test , not empty ...

in maximum combat loadout it is 10800kg mass. the issue it still the same

i wish i had found those document in 2009...

likely nothing will change...


Edited by Fifou265

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Fifou. Since 2009, I think we all get used of these rotor collisions and I don't think any experienced DCS Ka50 pilot is having them anymore in normal combat flights. While I do like hardcore DCS pilots like you because that's thanks to you guys that we got such a hardcore sim like DCS, coming after ED team 8 years after the release of the module and ask to correct the blade spacing when flying in marginal conditions sounds a little bit like an "enculage de mouche" (non speaking french readers, even google translate won't make sense of this expression, no need to try :) ).

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It's always worth a try to correct something. Its sad when people give up trying anything. Wether in RL or in a simulation. There is one thing that drives people. Growth and improvement in a word (innovation) is positive energy. Human nature always resists change especially when it requires hard work and attention to details. Not saying this has to be a priority now, but we can certainly add it to the list to improve this great sim module. Granted there are always compromises that have to be made in a simulator, I would imagine this is possible but I'm no Dev. It's great to hear people are trying and it would be better to see a community support anyone looking for improvements in any area. It encourages newcomers to join in our community and improve the sim for all of us as a whole.. Thanks for the info Fifou265 your work is very much appreciated.

 

Don't give up.

 

Big Fan:thumbup:

 

I also appreciate Badcrc for giving us a reality check. Good discussion.


Edited by thinkr
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Very nicely said thinkr. I agree, I think it's always worth the effort to kick up a fuss because you never know, ED are just as passionate about aviation like the rest of us but obviously they can't pay attention to every demand and must prioritize their work. They have stated that they will never abandon any module and the general standard and quality of DCS modules has had the bar raised significantly since BS1 so an upgrade down the track after F/A-18 etc could be very possible.

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Another suggestion I would make is there nothing wrong with selling a 3.0 update for Black Shark on a ED Officially supported kickstarter. Granted the Unofficial WWII kickstart was a blunder, but it was also due to it not being originally Officially supported. Voting is one thing in a forum, but a kickstarter allows people actually put their money in direct support. I see it as a good thing when people directly support a development. ED did a great job taking over the WWII responsibility. I would love to see an officially supported success become possible.


Edited by thinkr

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The FM and the animation are two different aspects here. I would not go off the animation for blade touching distance alone.

 

I have thrown the DCS Ka50 around and it's very maneuverable and find it hard to believe it's way off, if it is 850%, it must be built like a

 

simple , the simulated ka50 doesn't not match the real one

in all version of game since BS 1 /2 , DCSworld 1/2/2.1

(it was even worse in BS1 )

in forward flight 9800kg 20°C 50 meter msl 760mmhg

irl first at 300 tas km/h rotor minimal clearance is 850mm irl almost 2/3 clearance , in game at 280km/h it looks like less than 100mm , about to collide

 

Animation of blades. Do they look wrong.

 

irl :

at 0 km/h clearance is 1400mm

at 300km/h clearance 850mm

700mm at 320km/h

dive can be done at 390 km/h rotor blade tip reach 1.0 mach

 

in game also 90/80° flat turn at 220 km/h seems impossible (can be done at 180 km/h)

 

check clearancies at 45° , 107°

 

How many g forces are you pulling, and in what direction to turn 90°? It does matter.

 

Lets go off the first document you posted, have you tested these parameters on page 11, against the DCS Ka50?

 

ERF1998-vol1-AD05.pdf

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=164357&stc=1&d=1497679813

 

Quick and dirty video G Load Test, new PC no Tacview installed.

 

No weapons loaded, fuel at 91%, Total 21608 lbs or 9801 Kg, as per diagram.

 

(Full fuel, 12 Vikhr's, 40 S-8KOM, 24888 lbs or 11289 Kg) Yes, that 1500Kg's will make a big difference to the performance chart. By how much? Quite a bit I would think, should do a quick comparison test with weapons, if I have time soon.

 

 

 

3C4w2FSrUaw

 

I hit around 3.5 G in the very tight turn in the video (Time

), at 300Kph. If this is out by that much, this is one super copper! I would like to see someone throw the Ka-50 around like that IRL. Last but not least, what the hell are you doing in this chopper to break it! It's not an F15, lol.

 

-

Ka50_Aerobatic.thumb.jpg.8eea079f3eb62c47e4144967eabbf541.jpg


Edited by David OC

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9PDZ-KwQJF0

 

DCS Ka-50 Gforce loading Test with full Weapons & Fuel 11289Kg

 

From what I see, the Ka-50 is very closely modeled to the IRL Ka-50 Black Shark, with weapons or without, going off the structural qualification chart posted by Fifou265. I was able to see 2.5 to 3G's in corners at different speeds during the flight with full weapons and fuel.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=164401&stc=1&d=1497759813

 

As you can see on the chart by the dots, not all the G and speed limits where actually reached and the weight was 9800Kg vs 11289Kg difference of 1489Kg or 15% increase.

 

I think the OP jumped the gun and was a little rude how he posted his report, for what he believed to be a major fault with the Ka-50 and showed no real evidence and spoke mostly of how close the blade animation was? Always post findings against charts that can be replicated and tested (By Ed's testers) to prove your findings are correct. Not post about the blades being too close in an graphic animation, it's all wrong and out by 800%, the devs messed this up so badly. quote "the flight model is seriously flawed" etc.

 

Now, it's more than OK to ask the question about any Flight model and to test things out when you believe it may be wrong, this helps ED find problems within the FM's and systems, just do it with some real facts in hand and be professional about how you deliver the post to ED's team in the bug sections of the forum, you know these guys put a lot of hard work (Years) into these FM's to get them as close as they can be with the information that's available at the time, if more information becomes available, I'm sure ED would look back into updating an older module, when time permits.

 

-

Ka50_SQual.jpg.a1e50a25d3cf1314f102b348797605e7.jpg

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Haha BaD CrC ! you just made my day.

Although it's always good to try catching new differences vs the real KA, at this time, i think the module is ≈ OK, tremendous work has been done for the sim. KA since 2009, not all were enjoyable, but it's done.

I never had a problem with rotor collision since very long time now, and i fly it like a fool. IMHO David OC probably could have done far worse in term of G-load.

Anyway, nice catch.

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this is bug report ,i don't understand why people said go buy hind , or don't report bug in this thread .... :doh:, truth need to be told:)

let stick to bug report plz

thx thinkr ,26-J39 for support

let makes blackshark great again :D

 

to David OC

 

maximum combat load is 10800kg , beyond that it is ferry load , maxium g is 1.5

in game you can take 3g without airframe stress or catastrophic failure , another flaw but less serious.

 

the rotor break at 330 km/h , the animation match the flight model, the flight model don't match the real thing , if what you told was correct then nothing would happen( animation desync)?

 

in real life forward speed at 320km/h give 750mm clearance , still more than 1/2 clearance

100mm difference between 300 km/h 320 km/h . in game ,about to collide. remember 500mm safety from kamov , and we have 750mm here

 

i 'm not rude , you are the one rude toward me ,i post real fact you claim i post lie now?my document are from kamov , the best source for this helicopter you can find , i just told the truth

 

still thx for investigating :)

 

how can you say that " for what he believed to be a major fault with the Ka-50 and showed no real evidence "

test again the animation match the flight model

 

in the past real pilot questionned the low rpm condition as not realistic , idle engine too powerful , autorotation unrealistic ,ed was evasive :sad


Edited by Fifou265

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Fifou. Since 2009, I think we all get used of these rotor collisions and I don't think any experienced DCS Ka50 pilot is having them anymore in normal combat flights. While I do like hardcore DCS pilots like you because that's thanks to you guys that we got such a hardcore sim like DCS, coming after ED team 8 years after the release of the module and ask to correct the blade spacing when flying in marginal conditions sounds a little bit like an "enculage de mouche" (non speaking french readers, even google translate won't make sense of this expression, no need to try smile.gif ).

 

You shouldn't "nit-pick" or exert endless effort trying to perfect minor details.

 

You are talking about very marginal simulated conditions here Fifou265, the very edge of the most extreme conditions, D level simulators struggle trying to simulate this correctly. What I'm saying is, the Ka-50 is a very accurate "simulated" model of the Ka-50 for the home PC and is not worth ED spending how much time? To appsolutely perfect the flight model in this extreme range of flight, it might be impossible to simulate that 100/100.

 

How much time should ED work on this edge of envelope conditions Fifou? Do you know what goes into these flight models? That I think are all the closest to simulated aircraft you can buy in the sim market place. You are talking about years of work to get to where YOU want it simulated to .

 

Realise ED has to draw a line here at some point and move forward, you could work on these flight models forever trying for absolute perfection.

 

Do you really think there is the market size and value for ED to release a Bs3?

 

-


Edited by David OC
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Can you imagine the reaction to a BS3 @ that other SIM site ? ;)

 

They would loose there heads, start a rumor Weta43. Ka-50 Black Shark 3 Confirmed.:) Then sit back and watch...

 

Now back on topic...lol

 

Fifou265,

 

Your still talking about this clearance of blades at speed, most of what you are taking about is theoretical. What are you asking here for ED to change in the flight model exactly?

 

What parameters do you think the Ka-50 should reach here, that its not reaching?

 

I was able to get the Ka-50 to around 340Km/h, than loaded the G force up and....Boom!

 

B1CYyauBJ8I

 

At this speed going by your charts you collected, the max +G force at this speed is only around 1.7 Gs. Do you know of a real Ka50 flying at this speed? Link to it, if you have please.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=164483&stc=1&d=1497861503

-

attachment.php?attachmentid=164484&stc=1&d=1497861503

 

All is well flying very very carefully at 340Km/h

--

attachment.php?attachmentid=164485&stc=1&d=1497861503

 

The danger zone, right before.....Boom. You can fly at these speeds and perhaps more? You needed to be very very careful with any G force load, as per diagram.

--

Ka50_SQualnew.jpg.905351a88b496be7cf6a4508c7d172cf.jpg

Ka50Shot1.thumb.jpg.da2e1976d7d3f5aa3179026a64a557c8.jpg

Ka50Shot2.thumb.jpg.36a72f93f470df505265ad796371bf20.jpg

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