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Old 10-21-2019, 12:02 PM   #1
LordOrion
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Default "Predicted" target distance??

Probably I'm too much used to play with western planes and hence I cannot understand the eastern-fighters philosopy, but can someone explain me why I need to manually enter a "predicted target" when attacking BVR targets with Su-27?
Shouldn't this info can be taken automatically from the radar or AWACS data-link?
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #2
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Because that's how they designed it. Instead using TDC to set expected distance to target, they added separate parameter. Without setting expected distance, expected altitude will be wrong.

Btw, while that's true for Su-27, real mig-29 doesn't work like that.
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Old 10-21-2019, 12:59 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordOrion View Post
Probably I'm too much used to play with western planes and hence I cannot understand the eastern-fighters philosopy, but can someone explain me why I need to manually enter a "predicted target" when attacking BVR targets with Su-27?
Shouldn't this info can be taken automatically from the radar or AWACS data-link?
There's actually no need to play with it in the sim. The reason to use it is that by entering it, you can be certain that the target AWACs gave you the range for will be right in the center of your scan zone (in terms of altitude) when you adjust the altitude scale. Without it, you might start scanning it at the top of the zone or bottom of the zone.
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Old 10-21-2019, 01:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =4c=Nikola View Post
Because that's how they designed it. Instead using TDC to set expected distance to target, they added separate parameter. Without setting expected distance, expected altitude will be wrong.
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Originally Posted by Ironhand View Post
The reason to use it is that by entering it, you can be certain that the target AWACs gave you the range for will be right in the center of your scan zone (in terms of altitude) when you adjust the altitude scale.
Thanks guys, but let me understand better: what are you trying to say is that it is a sort of suggestion to the radar, like: "Hey phazotron, my target should be high, left, 50nm from here so start search from there" ?
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Old 10-21-2019, 01:28 PM   #5
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For example if you are at 10km altitude facing North and you get BRA 030/50/8, you set radar antenna to right, expected distance to 50 and expected altitude at -2, you should see the target.

The interface is not that good for independently scanning volume, it's less intuitive in that sense, but it does work really well with awacs/gci instructions.
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Old 10-21-2019, 01:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =4c=Nikola View Post
For example if you are at 10km altitude facing North and you get BRA 030/50/8, you set radar antenna to right, expected distance to 50 and expected altitude at -2, you should see the target.

Ok, so I guess that If target is already within the current radar range (CRR) there is no need to adjust predicted distance, except maybe is CRR is too high (i.e. CRR set tpo 50km with target at 10km), is this correct?
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Old 10-21-2019, 02:20 PM   #7
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No. CRR is just a display scale. Distance of a target can be inside display scale, but still outside of radar cone if you do not set expected distance and altitude.

For example, you are at 6000 meters altitude and target is 3000 meters altitude, 50km in front of you, hot. You set display scale to 50, expected distance to 50 and elevation to -3. Target appears on the display. If you do nothing and just observe, target will be closing, pass through your radar cone and disappear from display. If you note the distance where target disappeared and readjust expected distance to that value, target will reappear again. What you've done with that action is practically you're lowered antenna elevation.

You can observe that by setting up expected distance to 100 and elevation to -3. Elevation symbol -3 will be close to horizon. If you then start to decrease expected distance, you will notice elevation -3 symbol going down depicting the change in antenna elevation angle.


Effectively, with expected distance and expected delta altitude, you indirectly set antenna elevation angle.

Keep in mind that you can set the same elevation angle with different expected distance/expected delta altitude combinations. So the target you see in the example above at 50km and 3km will be in cone even if you set expected distance to 100km and expected delta altitude to -6 because that combination will give you exactly the same angle as expected distance 50km and expected delta altitude -3.
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Last edited by =4c=Nikola; 10-21-2019 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 03:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =4c=Nikola View Post
No. CRR is just a display scale. Distance of a target can be inside display scale, but still outside of radar cone if you do not set expected distance and altitude.

For example, you are at 6000 meters altitude and target is 3000 meters altitude, 50km in front of you, hot. You set display scale to 50, expected distance to 50 and elevation to -3. Target appears on the display. If you do nothing and just observe, target will be closing, pass through your radar cone and disappear from display. If you note the distance where target disappeared and readjust expected distance to that value, target will reappear again. What you've done with that action is practically you're lowered antenna elevation.

You can observe that by setting up expected distance to 100 and elevation to -3. Elevation symbol -3 will be close to horizon. If you then start to decrease expected distance, you will notice elevation -3 symbol going down depicting the change in antenna elevation angle.


Effectively, with expected distance and expected delta altitude, you indirectly set antenna elevation angle.

Keep in mind that you can set the same elevation angle with different expected distance/expected delta altitude combinations. So the target you see in the example above at 50km and 3km will be in cone even if you set expected distance to 100km and expected delta altitude to -6 because that combination will give you exactly the same angle as expected distance 50km and expected delta altitude -3.

Ouch!
Now I got it!
Thanks!
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Old 10-27-2019, 01:54 PM   #9
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I think you understood but just to say it in a different way.

It may be counter-intuitive at first that you are not controlling the antenna elevation directly like Western jets, rather telling the radar distance and relative altitude and it sets the elevation for you. But that's what it is, antenna elevation control by 2 indirect numbers instead of direct.

And it makes sense in the context of Soviet interceptor doctrine, where aircraft were expected to fly in rigid adherence to ground control instructions and likely would have their radar off to reduce chance of being detected. Then, as other said above, if ground control gives you a BRAA you need to point your radar there and turn it on, find the target ASAP, you don't want to be doing mental maths to calculate what angle antenna change you need. You just punch the same numbers to the radar as ground control just told you, and presto the antenna is on the target even if it's not on.

It's a different philosophy because you are aiming the scan center at a known point, while Western jets tend to care more about defining the scan area as this lends itself better to independent air superiority sweep type operations.
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Old 10-27-2019, 06:52 PM   #10
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More than "counter-intuitive" I think is "misleading" the way in which this system behavior is explained into the manual.


In the end, manually entering relative altitude and distance lead to a faster, more accurate target illumination and acquisition than the western "manually adjust the antenna elevation" principle.
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