Freely accessible student seats on trainers

Hey guys,

my proposal is a bit on the cocky side but please hear me out before I get shot down.

The background is that I quite often get people excited to look and tryout DCS world but I do not have really expressive means to help them get on with it. It's either me flying "with" them in spectator cam or on their wing (or next to their PCs), trying to tell them about things I cannot effectively see.

So what I really, really would like to have is either one of these two:

1) A coop seater which is part of the free package ... OR ...

2) The ability to "anyone" to sit with me in MY PURCHASED TRAINER on the same server. Heck I would even buy "trainee slot"-addon for the L-39 or Yak if its down to that.

The reasoning here is that the trainer aircraft could actually be used for what they are intended to do. Training people up and teach them flying so that they can have an easier start into this amazing sim. I had at least 4 instances of players in the last year where I would have loved to instruct them properly instead of going via the spectator / streaming route ... where I cannot take control and have a good grasp what they do right / wrong on the controls.

I know that there are potential drawbacks, but I might be worth a thought. I know that actually learning the planes is still pretty much down to RTFM / youtube ... but that's AFTER the players made their initial investment. I am more concerned with what happens before that ... so going from "playing DCS World for free" to "purchasing a module".

Of course I am not sure how it would not affect the module sales ... but these student seats would only be available if the instructor is flying in that trainer at the time. So if they'd want to fly alone, they'd have to buy module anyways. Makes sense?

I know that some of you will now scream about the 339, but I rather would have an un-modded way for new players.

Anyways, any thoughts on that? :) I am sure it would make my instructional flights easier ...

I believe that it is actually a very good idea ... I’d love to be able to teach friends on my C101 ... and this would serve as kind of a try-before-buy for a significant portion of those people, which translates into more sales for these trainers.

I’d also love to see ED adding a jump seat on the TF-51, even if it is just a passenger seat with no controls ... the more people get to experience DCS the better to bring more people into the DCS hobby.

I think a back seat to the TF-51 would be a smart move for ED to showcase multicrew to people who have yet to really dive into DCS. As far a trainers though I don't think it would be a bad idea to sell a "student license" on top of the of tha base module price. So that

1. Module but no student license- Second pilot must also own the module

2. Module plus student license- Allows people who do not own the module to join your cockpit.

I wouldn't expect ED or third party Devs to open up multicrew to non-owners for free.

+1 for a 2nd seat in a free trainer

+1 for a paid 2nd seat for trainer module owner

2 nice ideas :thumbup:

I really have no idea why nobody has done this yet, given that this idea is such a no-brainer. Absolutely should be made a reality!

I can only support this request.

lets broaden the field of pilots by making it easier to join DCS !

DCS World is free. How much easier could it be for people to try it?

DCS World is free. How much easier could it be for people to try it?

There is a simple answer:

With a free trainer module. A DCS veteran can show newbies what DCS feels like. You don't have to read manuals or learn all key bindings, systems, navigation or even how to fly before taking off.

I guess a lot of people IRL got their passion for aviation by a real flight with a real pilot.

May be that works with a free trainer too. May be VR could be a big thing here too.

DCS World is free. How much easier could it be for people to try it?

I stand by my original post here. Think about you getting in contact with DCS for the first time. You got excited by the trailers and want something more real than [iNSERT_NAME_OF_RANDOM_FLYING_ACTION_GAME_HERE]. You download DCS World ... what do you get?

1) A TF-51D ... as cool as WW2 are, they are not the core of the game ... as you can see on the majority of the trailers. Also you don't even have a WW2 theatre supplied with the game ... you get a modern Caucasus.

2) A SU-25T ... which as a FC3 aircrafts also does not represent the core of the game either as it is FC3.

Now you got two half-baked solutions for new beginners. So next thing is you start a training mission for either of these two planes and try to stay in there. Then you get overwhelmed by tons of numbers, abbreviations and other things which you never heard before you in your life.

Then comes the tough part ... while taxing in the Frogfoot is easier, the TF-51D will first have you turn in circles during taxi. Then comes the landing ... both airplanes are not easy to learn landings either as they have a lot of character in them. The TF-51D likes to bounce (and then burn) and the Frogfoot likes to flip over (and then burn).

Also the missions cannot really tell you whats wrong on the way (without very excessive scripting).

So ... what I am trying to say here is that this steep learning curve can be mitigated by using trainers ... where the instructor itself can decide how much exposure a student pilot gets to certain things.

Now you could easily say that a new player could just buy a trainer and find an instructor ... fair enough ... but my gut tells me that the first plane a new player would want to buy is not a trainer but one of the new jets. Each plane is quite a financial commitment, right? So a new player probably won't buy a trainer jet ... but rather something cool like a Viper or a Hornet.

... but at that point they might have already turned away as they could not manage to land the Frogfoot or the Mustang. I am serious here, I had that EXACT scenario happening to me this year. A friend refrained from buying any module because he could not bring down the Frogfoot in one piece.

Hence my request ... I happily would add a 40 dollar addon to get a "free-for-everyone"-seat in my Albatross so I can train with that new pilot and have him do stuff ... and me taking over if necessary.

It is pretty much like with all new things ... there is a reason why you have instructors in driving and flight schools. It's not really about learning the specific module ... it's about showing new players the basics and help them over the first hurdles to buy a module. And sharing a coop session in the same plane would be an effective way to do that.

Think about you getting in contact with DCS for the first time.

My first purchase of DCS was the A-10C on a Steam sale for $20. So the price of entry isn’t that high. As for learning I knew nothing at all about aircraft. Basically starting from zero. Reading the flight manual on an iPhone. But there is a TON of content out there on YouTube and elsewhere so it’s not such a ordeal if you have time. All the modules have good training missions and again anything at all you want to know there is just a huge amount of it online. A free ride in one of the planes, personally I wouldn’t find very interesting. I’m not that much of a noob.

Then there’s just the basic fact that giving away a free seat in a module would discourage people from buying it. So that’s not a great idea.

A free ride in one of the planes, personally I wouldn’t find very interesting. I’m not that much of a noob.

Obviously you personally would not gain anything by a free student seat ... you already know how to fly.

Then there’s just the basic fact that giving away a free seat in a module would discourage people from buying it. So that’s not a great idea.

I have to disagree here ... I think it would be the exact opposite. Help players over their first couple of hours and you'll have a potential new customer. What you are suggesting is that noobs would not buy a trainer because they can ride it for free ... but that is only the case if the instructor is online at the same time on the same server sitting in a trainer. That are a lot of ifs and it does not really allow for systemic abuse ... because it would effectively also block the DCS accounts of the instructors.

I see it the exact same way.

How can you really encourage people to fly in DCS with the current selection of free planes?

Obviously people will fly the Su25, because its more capable ... unfortunately the FC3 level planes can't really give you an impression of what DCS is capable of.

I have the exact situation that I want to show friends of mine this fascinating world of high fidelity flight, but i am unable except for gifting them planes or convincing them to buy one themselves - which is pointless.

For me the arguments of yogiklatt are very much valid and should deserve our full community support!

you already know how to fly.

I didn’t know much of anything when I first got DCS. There’s this thing called the internet where you can learn anything. Having a “game instructor” is not the only way to learn stuff in DCS.

The new player would still need a joystick and understand enough to map all their controls etc. That’s too much for some people.

I agree with Sharpe. The frequently brought up notion that giving stuff away will somehow change the fact this is a niche, low population environment is simply untrue. If somebody doesn't have the motivation and self discipline to watch a YouTube quickstart video or do some minimal research, they're not going to make it here.

Giving away module slots, while fine in principle isn't going to radically alter the environment. The trainers (or anything really) can be had for very little on sale, btw, it's not a steep ''entry'' point. Anyway, aside from the occasional person going ''wow neato'' it's not going to make much difference, aside from causing even fewer sales.

I've arranged FOUR different people to take demo flights in gliders in-RL. All four absolutely loved. Exactly ZERO have expressed an interest in learning to fly, despite gliding being extremely affordable. The fact is, when complexity + effort required exceed a certain (relatively low) point, 99% of people will have either no interest or minimal novelty interest.

You can gauge somebody's interest in aviation with any number of simpler, cheaper products first, like Il-2:1946, even War Thunder. If somebody doesn't have an interest in aviation, you're wasting your time. Once interest is established, THEN you can bring them into DCS. It's kind of like taking a med student and demanding they perform brain surgery. You are skipping a few steps there

You can gauge somebody's interest in aviation with any number of simpler, cheaper products first, like Il-2:1946, even War Thunder.

I would only assume that the majority of DCS players come to this sim after experiencing easier flying games and generate an interest and desire to do something more realistic and complex. But this isn’t likely somebody’s first plunge into flight sims.

It’s hilarious to hook up your noob friends on your flight sim and watch them crash ... :joystick:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=162399

Vote was 50/50 split.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=162399

 

Vote was 50/50 split.

So it’s just allowing two people to share a paid module. Great way to eliminate 50% of sales! :doh:

Thats why people in this thread are saying sell me a second license that lets me take up people who don't own the module. You get to resell it to a bunch of people who already own it and maybe the test drive sells a few more to other who don't yet.

Thats why people in this thread are saying sell me a second license that lets me take up people who don't own the module. You get to resell it to a bunch of people who already own it and maybe the test drive sells a few more to other who don't yet.

You want to pay an extra $59 to find out that DCS is too difficult for your friends?

So it’s just allowing two people to share a paid module. Great way to eliminate 50% of sales! :doh:

i wouldn't say you cut sales in half - i believe you gain more people investing money in DCS ;)

You want to pay an extra $59 to find out that DCS is too difficult for your friends?

With me in the instructor seat ot wont be to difficult:smilewink:

You want to pay an extra $59 to find out that DCS is too difficult for your friends?

ROFL

I did that a few times gifting modules. Learned REALLLLY fast about that

@Jester

They're still going to have to invest in controls and RTFM at some point, which is when 90% of them will split. BTDT. Even the FC aircraft are more demanding than most have patience for.

While I have no inherent problems with the idea of paid "student licenses" or even free ones if possible, I don't really think that it will be the solution that some might think it would be. The trainers in DCS are in a odd place in that they are not really used as trainers by what is probably the majority of the players who buy them. I suspect that many who buy the trainers are doing so because they have very specific interest in a given trainer (like the L-39, C-101, Yak, or even the F-5 in some ways). Those that buy them are probably already experienced with other modules and probably already have a background in flight simming.

For new players who are just getting into the hobby, the trainers are not going to be (typically) the thing that draws them in. It will be the flashy, sexy aircraft like the F-16, F/A-18, or F-14. It will be the aircraft that can do missions, hold up in a fight, and generally offer a lot of "bang for the buck". Trainers don't really offer any of that. They are the kind of thing that someone gets as their third or fourth module, not their first.

There is another thing to consider. For the newest of new players (the ones who have no prior sim experience and don't know a lot about airplanes), a trainer in DCS isn't going to offer anything that another module can't do. This is something that always comes to mind when the trainer discussion comes up. A new player who wants to learn the basics of flying in DCS can do it just as well in a A-10C or a MiG-21. After that, such aircraft actually have something meaningful to offer in the mission variety/versatility department that the trainers simply can't compete with.

^ this

Every aircraft in the roster can be started in about two minutes and flown assuming you're not too lazy to watch a YouTube video or read a guide. The ''complexity'' of the weapons, nav systems, number of buttons, etc, is irrelevant as you do not need ANY of that in order to fly it. You can learn the basics on the just released F-16 just as easily as any other plane.

Aside from the novelty of coop flight which will wear off quickly, and enthusiasm for an airframe, none of the real world incentives to have trainers exist.

The planes do not have operating costs.

There are no consequences for a mistake.

There are no federally mandated hours restrictions.

If your buddy is still doing virtual ride-a-longs after the first flight or two, I'd say he/she absolutely needs to grow a pair or is just utterly hopeless. Flying is not that hard. It just requires two brain cells and the tiniest spark of ambition to get started. That's why the minimum age is only 14 in RL. If you can't match a 14yo's gumption this isn't the game for you lol