hazzer Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Hi, When using force feedback with curves there is an issue with trimming. If you trim the stick will move to where the linear position of the stick should be (no curves) which makes the stick extra sensitive. This is an issue especially in the helicopers, su-27, f-5, mig-29 where trimming is important. I can trim all the way down in the su27 and it will be super sensitive and still climb at a low speed. An easy demonstration of this is with the the huey or mi-8 with the force trim button. If no curves are set you can press it and the stick will stay in the same place. But add some curves and the sick will move out of trim. This issue needs to be fixed for ffb. Lots of people still use ffb and it ruins the experience. RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headwarp Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 (edited) Hi, When using force feedback with curves there is an issue with trimming. If you trim the stick will move to where the linear position of the stick should be (no curves) which makes the stick extra sensitive. This is an issue especially in the helicopers, su-27, f-5, mig-29 where trimming is important. I can trim all the way down in the su27 and it will be super sensitive and still climb at a low speed. An easy demonstration of this is with the the huey or mi-8 with the force trim button. If no curves are set you can press it and the stick will stay in the same place. But add some curves and the sick will move out of trim. This issue needs to be fixed for ffb. Lots of people still use ffb and it ruins the experience. This has always been the case with FFB and not limited to DCS as far as I know. Same thing happens if I add curves in my other combat sim that I won't mention by name. I tend to just be extra gentle with my controls and fly without curves. Even though it's more sensitive, I can feel stalls coming on with it and I tend to fly better than a spring loaded stick with curves. I almost never stall, as I feel them coming on. Closest I'm ever going to get to flying by feel. For fixed wings though I only bust out the msffb2 for prop planes, but if it had more buttons I'd use it for everything. I've developed a method of tapping the stick fore and aft with a finger or thumb rather than rest my hand on the grip when using as a helicopter cyclic for hover/ground control and get to fly a little more freely with the cyclic when in cruise. Can feel a little too touchy when aiming rockets or guns from a fixed position, but after developing muscle memory to be gentle it's doable. I also kind of visualize the R22 cyclic. During hover and taxi it's like they barely move the cyclic in this video, making very small adjustments throughout the entire flight. Even through the turns you can hardly notice cyclic movement. I'd love it if we COULD add curves to an ffb stick.. but how to code that is beyond me and it's something ffb users have been dealing with for the lifetime of the sim, and other sims. Edited February 12, 2019 by Headwarp Spoiler Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles. Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener. Obutto R3volution gaming pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FragBum Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 I'd add for hellis if you can support your wrist a stack of books anything just for support, it should help with fine control. I normally use thumb and 2 fingers for cyclic input but I also rest my wrist on my thigh for support when flying. :) Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment. Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above. Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 Yeah I understand how it is, just would be nice to be fixed, the helos are fine without curves but the f5 and others are awful with and without cos of this RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 Just because it's always been the case doesn't mean It shouldn't be fixed RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headwarp Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) Just because it's always been the case doesn't mean It shouldn't be fixed The problem therein lies that I'm not a coder and I've never created and FFB device that runs off of direct api. Is this an issue that microsoft could add to the api for? If so, how do we convince them to do so when they stopped selling ffb products themselves years ago. Polychop tried to find a solution but they really just created a deadzone afaict. If i knew where to point ED to a quick fix i'd have done so long ago myself. Like is there a way to simply add to or subtract from the overall length of the axes we're controlling when an msffb2 or g940 is plugged in? Where to even begin. I've flown the viggen and the mig-21 with ffb. Pretty much the same muscle memory involved as flying prop planes with the ffb stick. Best thing one can do for now is just learn to be real gentle, barring that try SimFFB which I think has it's own "trim" settings or you can set the stick through to centering force and add curves that way. Edited February 13, 2019 by Headwarp Spoiler Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles. Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener. Obutto R3volution gaming pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 The issue is that when you trim the stick centre obviously moves forward because the joystick does, as it should. But the curve stays in the original place meaning it is super sensitive. The solution would be to get the curve to change depending on the amount of trim added. RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flav Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 +1!!!!!!!! ffb user needs to have a following software neutral... i mean, the softwar neutral (and curve) need to move with the trim. w/o that, when we trim, the reponse stick is middle of the curve, and hyper sensitive... two things : -for aircraft( not helo) without hystoric reset trim, i think we need a "cheat" reset trim button. -the best way is to have a softwar following neutral or curve with trim.... without that the ffb experience is totaly ruins....:joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 I know it sucks. Its bareable in some aircraft that don't need much curves or trim but in things like the su27 and f5 you cant fly RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flav Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 and on the F14, no autopilot possibility, cause to engage the AP on F14, u need to be on neutral point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted July 8, 2019 Author Share Posted July 8, 2019 Could a member of the team look into this please, it is still an issue! RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldur Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 This is such an important issue... don't know how the Polychop attempt works though as their chopper goes crazy even with 25 Sat Y settings and even has some strange hard coded deadzones in it. Trying to trim that thing is pointless also due it flying like it had some FBW. Just center the cyclic and pitch and roll are held perfectly. If that thing actually had an FM, we could at least test what the FFB curves settings did. Anyway, technically it should be possible to convert the curves and saturation settings to the FFB spring mechanism. Also, shifting the curves centres to keep the stick precise around them would be really awesome. If we just had FFB on the WH or other sticks... they're easy to extend. It's just expensive. Would solve to many problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted July 18, 2019 Author Share Posted July 18, 2019 This is such an important issue... don't know how the Polychop attempt works though as their chopper goes crazy even with 25 Sat Y settings and even has some strange hard coded deadzones in it. Trying to trim that thing is pointless also due it flying like it had some FBW. Just center the cyclic and pitch and roll are held perfectly. If that thing actually had an FM, we could at least test what the FFB curves settings did. Anyway, technically it should be possible to convert the curves and saturation settings to the FFB spring mechanism. Also, shifting the curves centres to keep the stick precise around them would be really awesome. If we just had FFB on the WH or other sticks... they're easy to extend. It's just expensive. Would solve to many problems. If someone on the ed team has a ffb stick the best demo of the issue is using the trim in the mi8 or Huey. Press the trimmer and put it where you want, then when you let go you will see the jolt as the ffb kicks back in and moves the stick to the wrong position RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 They have said no one at ED has a FFB. Amazing we actually have such thorough support Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldur Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Clearly something that needs to be changed And if just someone would send his spare one to Wags I remember HB not having any FFB sticks as well not long ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I have a spare one lying around..... Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted July 30, 2019 Author Share Posted July 30, 2019 Here are some images to illustrate the issue. This needs fixing.I cannot fly the f-5 like this, the trim is full down but because of this bug its still pitching up RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Get rid of your curve. Get used to the sensitivity or you’ll need a regular stick. Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted July 31, 2019 Author Share Posted July 31, 2019 Get rid of your curve. Get used to the sensitivity or you’ll need a regular stick. Urm no, this is a bug report. That is not the solution. In aircraft like the f-5 that is not possible. Telling someone to just buy another joystick isn't a solution either. This is something which I believe can be easily fixed. No need to be so rude. RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Sorry but I’m just not sure it will be fixed very soon. Not until a company releases a FFB stick that is less than $2000 and ED wants to support it. Our sticks were made almost twenty years ago. The gazelle has a FFB curves option but not sure how well it works right now. I really wish things were different, now without the immersion Rc patent hopefully things improve Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted July 31, 2019 Author Share Posted July 31, 2019 Sorry but I’m just not sure it will be fixed very soon. Not until a company releases a FFB stick that is less than $2000 and ED wants to support it. Our sticks were made almost twenty years ago. The gazelle has a FFB curves option but not sure how well it works right now. I really wish things were different, now without the immersion Rc patent hopefully things improve Thing is as it was discovered in a thread not that long ago, lots of people use ffb sticks! RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john4pap Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Lots of people are using ff and I believe that ff is the future of joysticks. I never had many problems with the Huey that others report, but it's nearly impossible to fly the spitfire with ff. It is not that much of a bug, rather an oversight. However, if ED wants to support their ww2 modules (where ff shines in my opinion) they will have to take a look at it. I understand that it is not a priority, however it can't be that difficult to have curves compatible with ff. Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD_Fenrir Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 I fly Spitfire with an MSFFB2, with a very harsh custom curve set on the pitch control axis and it flies just fine for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeriaGloria Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 But the force per amount of stock travel is probably exactly the same as if there was no curve Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzer Posted April 24, 2020 Author Share Posted April 24, 2020 But the force per amount of stock travel is probably exactly the same as if there was no curve That coupled with it going out of alignment with trim makes it awful. It stands out more in different aircraft. I've been after this getting fixed for like 4 years. The devs said about a year ago that they will work on it. However I doubt they are that interested in making us happy. RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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