AIM-54A in STT and TWS

Hey guys, good to see you back. I hope you had a great holiday season! :thumbup:

I know there haven't been any changes to the Phoenix yet, so i would like to ask a question related to a topic we once had. Last night i practiced against AI's in BVR again. Now, i know the 54's eat chaff like there is no tomorrow, both the A's and the C's, but still. I setup an aggressor F-15 at 50NM and angels 25 and engaged him at different ranges. In this case i fired only A's at him.

The main difference was only the mode in which i fired the missile, TWS or STT. In both cases i tried to keep the target illuminated at least until some 20 NM away (from my plane, not the missile).

The results were, that when all missiles were fired in relatively optimal conditions (head on, 30-40NM, supersonic platform), out of about 20 missiles fired in TWS, only 2 hit the target. The opposite was the case when i fired the missiles in STT. I had about 8/10 success rate.

I couldn't always observe the target or the missiles, especially at longer ranges, because i was busy maintaining the lock, so i was curious, why such disparity? The AI as always, launches copious amounts of CM and defends in both cases with dives and notches. So is the missile more susceptible to the CM in TWS? Because the terminal phase is always the same. What ever the difference must be before the missile goes active.

The terminal phase is not the same. With an STT the Phoenix guides all the way to the target off the AWG-9s radar energy. In TWS, the Phoenix uses its own radar in the terminal phase.

The terminal phase is not the same. With an STT the Phoenix guides all the way to the target off the AWG-9s radar energy. In TWS, the Phoenix uses its own radar in the terminal phase.

That's how it works IRL, yes, but to my understanding this isn't simulated yet in DCS. That's why we're waiting for the upcoming Phoenix upgrade which will give us actual Phoenix guidance logic.

What’s missing today is the ability to communicate to the missile in flight. So the Phoenix has it’s own radar turned on from the start. It still has to track the target of it’s own accord in the terminal phase. A Phoenix launched in STT is guided by the radar energy of the AWG-9 which is doing the tracking for it.

I think that right now in DCS, Phoenixes launched in STT still go active for terminal guidance since they're basically working like AMRAAMs. I believe changing that behavior is part of the Phoenix guidance update that got delayed.

You’re right, yes... I sometimes lose track of all the before and afters. My mind gets stuck living in the “after” because it’s been living there for so long. So the real difference with an STT in the “before” times is the constant rate of guidance update as opposed to the once-per-scan that’s provided in TWS.

That's how it works IRL, yes, but to my understanding this isn't simulated yet in DCS. That's why we're waiting for the upcoming Phoenix upgrade which will give us actual Phoenix guidance logic.

You’re right, yes... I sometimes lose track of all the before and afters.

Indeed. :thumbup:

This is why i hope the devs will notice the question and give an answer. The only difference in the above case is the pre-terminal guidance

I also noticed how the missile goes immediately for chaffs, in both STT and TWS. First TWS shot at 25Nm, then PDSTT/PSTT at 15, 10, 5Nm and they all went for chaffs. Or maybe the AI is incredibly good at notching it ?

The only difference in the above case is the pre-terminal guidance

Well, no, the difference is in the entire flight. In both scenarios the missile is active the entire flight, so effectively there is no terminal phase.

I also noticed how the missile goes immediately for chaffs, in both STT and TWS. First TWS shot at 25Nm, then PDSTT/PSTT at 15, 10, 5Nm and they all went for chaffs. Or maybe the AI is incredibly good at notching it ?

If the bandit notches, then there's a really good chance it'll go for the chaff... that's still a win, though, because now he's defensive and you can press without getting shot at...

Well, no, the difference is in the entire flight. In both scenarios the missile is active the entire flight, so effectively there is no terminal phase.

The missile is active the entire flight, but it does seam to receive guidance updates from the Weapon control system as well. Try and turning away immediately after launch and try guiding the missile all the way through. See if it makes a difference.

In my case, it made quite a bit of difference when i guided it in TWS and in PDSTT. One had about 10% pk and the other 80+% pk.

We’re talking past each other. I agree that STT and TWS have differences in the guidance. What I’m saying is that those differences aren’t in the terminal phase of the missile’s flight, because right now the missile doesn’t have a “terminal” phase of flight. It has a single phase of flight from the moment it leaves the rail to the moment of impact.

We’re talking past each other. I agree that STT and TWS have differences in the guidance. What I’m saying is that those differences aren’t in the terminal phase of the missile’s flight, because right now the missile doesn’t have a “terminal” phase of flight. It has a single phase of flight from the moment it leaves the rail to the moment of impact.

Ah, roger that! :thumbup:

Maybe we should settle on the guidance pre-15 NM mark then :D

Fair enough! I would think STT has a significant advantage at this point in time because the Phoenix is active (it eventually won’t be when launched in STT) AND it’s getting constant guidance input from the AWG-9.

Isn't it fair to assume that currently, and until the new missile API is patched into DCS World, the AIM-54 in BVR behaves like AIM-120 ?

Pretty much, yep....

I wonder...... the manual says it can go active, once it receives the "go active" command from the weapons control system. Does this mean you can launch it and then manually tell it to go active from the RIO seat, or is the process exclusively automatic?

Exclusively automatic....

I wonder...... the manual says it can go active, once it receives the "go active" command from the weapons control system. Does this mean you can launch it and then manually tell it to go active from the RIO seat, or is the process exclusively automatic?

Right now it's not working.

You can shoot, turn away and the AIM-54 will go active at pre-determined moment.

Waiting for new missile API.

Right now it's not working.

You can shoot, turn away and the AIM-54 will go active at pre-determined moment.

 

Waiting for new missile API.

I know, but i'm trying to create a training syllabus for myself so i can develop and practice the proper weapon implementation when it finally does work as it's supposed to.

Exclusively automatic....

Interesting. I'll have to take that into account :thumbup:

I know, but i'm trying to create a training syllabus for myself so i can develop and practice the proper weapon implementation when it finally does work as it's supposed to.

Smart move... there are a lot of guys out there developing bad habits right now, I’m sure. Shoot, crank (sucks with Jester, but gotta do it), keep the target under illumination until around 15 seconds TTI which is about when the Phoenix will go pit bull.

Smart move... there are a lot of guys out there developing bad habits right now, I’m sure.

:thumbup:

Shoot, crank (sucks with Jester, but gotta do it), keep the target under illumination until around 15 seconds TTI which is about when the Phoenix will go pit bull.

Trying! Indeed not an easy prospect, doubly so with the omniscient AI that immediately goes defensive, even when targeted in TWS. Maybe TWS auto will remedy this.

But cranking even with PD-STT is something that requires work. Too much roll or too hard a break and the lock drops. But this is irrelevant to our 15s TTI exercise :joystick:

I didn’t notice AI going defensive when targeted in TWS, not on launching missiles.

In past experience, analysing TacView replay, they rather go defensive when missile incoming is within 10Nm.

They even don’t go defensive on Fox 1 launch at range > 10 Nm, which can make them vulnerable at high altitude.

Didn’t notice any change with Tomcat.

Hmm... I will have to tell my pilot not to crank around so much right after firing in stt. So far it seems the best way to do it. With those guys trying to hide in the weeds the TID and data-link is almost useless.

Hmm... I will have to tell my pilot not to crank around so much right after firing in stt. So far it seems the best way to do it. With those guys trying to hide in the weeds the TID and data-link is almost useless.

It's a bit tricky, but with some practice and experience it does work to keep such contacts within the radar limits in RWS/TWS mode. You have to stay on the ball in regards to your elevation adjustment though. It's easier if you keep the azimuth scan zone small, so you can scan more elevation bars quicker.