Help with Take Off and landing

Hi guys!

Are there any of you who have mastered this old relic!?

Crashing all the time on take off and landing. Can’t seem to track the centre line with pedals and always rolling so the wing tips touch!!

I have to admit it’s a beast when trimmed in the air! Quite confident is getting AA kills! Pitty its hit or miss getting airborne and landing! I fly Cessna in RL, so have a basic understanding, however tail drag craft is a whole new game!

Looking numbers to put me on the sweet spot for both! Also what curves etc for thrust master wart!

Thanks

weird landing

No so hard,because we are able to land on a carrier without any assistance.

I think it's a little bit weird,but that's it

I mean, with a little practice everything is possible.

Other warbirds:

http://cromhunt.proboards.com/thread/342/weird-warbirds-landings

just a word:

to take off do not use more than 8 to boost

push on the stick to raise the tail, so the pedals(rudder) will be more effective

and to land take the final at 100, and quietly let the bird settle on its own.

no secret only the practice

Hi Irishlad,

Please see the following for some tips and hints:

accompanying which I put a post here covering my thoughts on the best way to get the Spitty off and on the ground with (relatively) clean underwear.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=180014

The power usage is a great point, these Merlin singles have power to weight in buckets; you don't need to open the taps all the way, nor in a hurry; steadily raise the throttle and counteract for torque yaw with steady application of rudder. Pick outside references either side of the Merlin blind-spot for maintaining the centreline, once you see the ASI come alive you can pick the tail up with a little forward yoke (not too much) to afford a better forward view, rotate with back yoke won't be by much. That you have all that power; don't let it fool you into thinking you need full throttle; you don't.

If you want to sharpen up your landings, spend some time coming in to land but instead of actually landing, leave the gear up and get comfortable flying a foot or two above the runway.

Once you're comfortable doing that, landing is simply a case of having the gear out and chopping the throttle when you're in that attitude.

Also, spend some time flying the P-51 (or TF-51) for take off practice if you're just learning taildraggers, as it's more forgiving.

Everyone has a method that works for them. For myself, I set the rudder trim full right and the elevator trim one notch up by the guage on the dash. for takeoff. Apply power slowly to 8 or 9 boost.

For landing my problem for a long time was coming in too fast. Nowadays I lower the gear at 160 and trim up then I lower the flaps and trim up. I do this early and as I slow down some I get the trim perfect at 115 or 120 mph.

I keep my angle of attack fairly steep while lined up so I can see the gun sight dot at the far edge of the runway.

By the time I am over the fence I like to be down around 100 mph and 50 feet off the ground.

It is then simply a matter of getting close to the ground as I ease off the throttle more touching down at no more than 70 mph. The slow sped on landing is key to success.

Again, everyone has their own way of landing for sure and I respect that. I am not a pro by any means but that works well for me.

Even a straight in approach works fine for me if I put the gun sight dot at the far end at about 1000 feet.

Calibrating your altimeter in the air to the landing runway is a huge help. If you are landing soon at the same altitude or runway then zeroing it before takeoff could be accurate on landing.

Again, for a successful landing slow down. 70 mph max at touchdown will be nice and gentle.

Heels on the floor. No brakes until you are well slowed down. There is tons of runway in reality. No rush. Hold it off the deck until it is low and slow enough.

A major problem I had on landing was veering from side to side and dipping a wing.

Applying about 20% of brake (just use the mouse wheel on the brake lever) before landing will make you much more controlled once you touch down. This makes up for the lack of an analog brake axis.

Here's a great text on the subject I stole from the interwebs:

HOW TO - TAKE OFF AND LAND A 'SUPERMARINE SPITFIRE'

Mk1, Mk11, and MkV. In the early years of WW2.

INTRODUCTION

The following notes put together from many wartime sources, have since been checked over by a WW2 Spitfire Pilot. The record should only be regarded as an averaged guideline, acting as an aid towards further understanding and appreciation of R.A.F. Fighter Pilots experiences during WW2. It is acknowledged that much of the procedures and checks that have been outlined below would not have had time to have been carried out under war conditions. Only a few essentials, using a memory guide cockpit drill, like T.M.P.F.F.R or R.A.F.T.S, based on individual pilot experience, would have been possible in the haste to get their machines up into the air. It is acknowledged that there were a number of technical differences between the Spitfire Mk 1, Mk11 and the Mk V, which have not been outlined below. However, it is felt, within these limitations the following notes try to present an historical guide and impression of how to fly the early Marks of the Supermarine Spitfire.

 

PREPARING FOR START UP :-

Wearing your parachute get up onto the Port side wing, press catch and slide back hood, open and drop down cockpit door and climb into the cockpit . Adjust seat height and pedal settings to suit. Pick up the two Sutton Harness leg straps, and insert each eye buckle into the harness lock, then pull the other two Sutton Harness straps over your shoulders and fix them also into the lock. Finally insert the lock pin. Adjust strap tension.

With helmet on and mask attached, pick up it's RT cable and oxygen supply tube and fit both into their sockets on right hand side of cockpit.

Next press the Sutton Harness release bolt on cockpit right to enable you to lean forward to : -

Turn Master Switch ON, and wait for the dials to respond.

Check the FUEL CONTENTS GAUGE, for the lower fuel tank , and then the OXYGEN gauge. Check that their needles are up to the full mark.

Check that the UNDERCARRIAGE SELECTOR LEVER is in the DOWN position.

Switch on the Undercarriage Indicator light.

Check that the INDICATOR on the panel shows GREEN for DOWN.

Check that the FLAPS SWITCH is in the UP position.

Check that the LANDING LAMP SWITCH is in the UP position.

Push Both FUELCOCK levers UP for ON.

Turn ELEVATOR TRIM tab control wheel - FORWARD for Nose Heavy, about one quarter rotation of the wheel.

Turn RUDDER TRIM tab control wheel - Full Forward for Starboard effect.

Push AIR SCREW CONTROL LEVER fully forward for FINE PITCH setting.Push the manual RADIATOR SHUTTER fully forward to OPEN.

Using the CONTROL COLUMN visually check the Ailerons Elevator's and Rudder control surfaces, all move in the correct manner.

Turn on R/T (radio transmit) 4 buttons, one for each frequency.

Then take a quick double check round to see that all of the above actions have been carried out.

Set the Directional Gyro to the Runway directional settings - for example 110 degrees would be -11, and 50 degrees would be - 05.

TIGHTEN and then CHECK the THROTTLE FRICTION ADJUSTER.

Push the THROTTLE LEVER OPEN half an inch.

Pull the MIXTURE CONTROL LEVER fully back to the RICH setting.

When the Merlin engine is cold, unlock the Kygas PRIMING PUMP then slowly prime the pump with up to SIX STROKES, finally work the priming pump handle back OUT, feeling the fuel pressure resistance within the unit.

Look out of Cockpit call ‘ALL CLEAR’? See that Ground Staff acknowledge.

Flick the TWO MAGNETO SWITCHES UP for ON.

Call ‘CONTACT’ ! See that Ground Staff acknowledge.

Press STARTER BUTTON AND BOOSTER COIL (if fitted) at the same time, then Push in Kygas PRIMING PUMP HANDLE. Hold buttons in until the Merlin engine fires up smoothly.

If however flames are spotted at the exhaust stubs, resulting from engine flooding, hold the Starter Button IN until flames have disappeared, to avoid a fire.

Finally SCREW TIGHT Kygas PRIMING PUMP.

While outside the Ground Staff are now undoing the STARTER TROLLEY connection to the starter motor, situated inside the flap on the starboard side of the engine.

ADJUST THROTTLE to allow the Merlin engine to warm up and run evenly. Watch the RADIATOR TEMPERATURE GAUGE needle particularly in warm weather. The early Mk's are prone to overheating quickly. Do NOT let the temperature exceed 100 degrees centigrade, especially whilst stationary. The early Mk's have only one radiator positioned under the starboard wing which is partially masked by it's undercarriage leg.

Taxi off as soon as possible and Keep checking the radiator temperature gauge until take off.

ENGINE AND CONTROLS CHECK : -

Check REV COUNTER - around 1200 revs on warming up.

Check RADIATOR TEMPERATURE GAUGE - safe around 90 degrees.

Check OIL TEMP GAUGE - 30 degrees min, and up to 90 in flight.

Check OIL PRESSURE GAUGE - 30 lbs.

Check FUEL PRESSURE GAUGE - 2.5 to 3 lb square inch.

Check BRAKE PRESSURE GAUGE - min 120 lbs.

Check MAGNETOS - Open the throttle to zero boost, the engine note increases.

Turn OFF and ON to check EACH MAGNETO in TURN, expect a 25 to 50 drop in rpm when only one magneto is in operation. You will hear a slight note change in engine sound. THROTTLE right back to TICK OVER once again. Check that the COCKPIT DOOR is locked in the half open SAFETY POSITION. Check that the COCKPIT HOOD is locked in the OPEN position.

 

TAXIING OUT ONTO RUNWAY : -

Indicate ‘CHOCKS AWAY’ to Ground crew, RELEASE BRAKE LEVER on control column, ease OPEN the THROTTLE and taxi out. Apply and check the brakes.

NOTE - You as pilot cannot see the ground over the engine at all, but you can look out over the cockpit sides. This is best achieved by swerving the plane from side to side to avoid running into anything.

To SWERVE when taxiing out, use the RUDDER PEDALS to control the distribution of pressure to the right and left wheel brakes, i.e. - even pressure for going straight and uneven for swerving from side to side. The power of braking is controlled by the BRAKE LEVER on the control grip. Use a burst of THROTTLE to move the plane into position ready for take off.

Watch the RADIATOR TEMPERATURE gauge, max.100 degrees. There is no time to hang about, you must get airborne as quickly as possible.

 

READY TO TAKE OFF : -

NOTE - A good take off run is about 230 yds long in about 9.5 sec's.

QUICK CHECK while stationary - ELEVATOR TRIM is set, RUDDER BIAS is set, MIXTURE is in RICH position, THROTTLE FRICTION adjuster is TIGHT, AIR SCREW set at FINE PITCH control fully forward, the FLAPS are UP, the RADIATOR shutter is fully OPEN, and finally check all instrument readings are OK. Is your harness tight? Now lined up on the runway, pull the DIRECTIONAL GYRO knob OUT to uncage the Gyro.

 

Communicate with CONTROL TOWER. WATCH THE WINDSOCK, for guidance on wind direction and speed. CHECK FOR OTHER PLANES AROUND.

 

TAKING OFF :-

Your Spitfire now faces INTO THE WIND. Be prepared to move your right foot forward for FULL RIGHT RUDDER to counteract swing effect from the Merlin engine. RELEASE BRAKE lever on the control column. OPEN THROTTLE gently to about 4lbs of boost. Push CONTROL COLUMN gently FORWARD, from the back position towards the middle, and at about 40 m.p.h. the tail end will lift up to level the plane. (Moving the control column too far forward could force the nose down and damage the propeller blades).

Now travelling along the airfield, working both RIGHT AILERON control together with RIGHT FOOT rudder pedal, will keep the Spitfire STRAIGHT on line. Push the THROTTLE FORWARD to increase power. The TAIL has now LIFTED OFF the ground, so pull CONTROL COLUMN BACK a touch. Racing across the ground EASE THROTTLE FORWARD TO the GATE for full power. Over the bumps and now at 85 m.p.h. plus, the Spitfire rises into the air. Hold steady the control column and feel the lift as the plane becomes airborne.

Do not start to climb before a speed of 140 mph is reached. Remember that a normal rate of climb is achieved at 185 mph up to 13,000 ft.

 

As this is all HAPPENING TOGETHER, EASE OFF RIGHT RUDDER as soon as the plane lifts off the ground. Then when sufficiently high in the air (and when the engine sounds and controls feel fine) move your LEFT HAND off the throttle lever over to the CONTROL COLUMN, and at the same time, move your RIGHT HAND over onto the UNDERCARRIAGE CONTROL lever. Lift the Lever out of the BOTTOM gate slot and then push the lever right up to the top, hold it in place until the lever locks back into the TOP gate slot. At the same time apply a touch of BRAKE to stop the wheels rotating. Listen for the two bumps which tell you that wheels are up. Then immediately confirm this by checking that the COCKPIT INDICATOR has changed from green to RED.

 

As you then change hands back to their original positions, pull the THROTTLE LEVER BACK to cruising revs around 2000 rpm, pull the AIR SCREW CONTROL LEVER back a bit, (to reduce boost and r.p.m.), and then push the MIXTURE CONTROL FORWARDS, (for a weaker mixture),to zero boost at around 180 m.p.h.

CLOSE the RADIATOR shutter, CLOSE firmly the COCKPIT DOOR, grasp hold of the hood locking catch and push CLOSE the COCKPIT HOOD. Adjust ELEVATOR and TAIL TRIMS to suit.

QUICK CHECK AROUND as you then bank the Spitfire to PORT and climb to circle high, up to a safe 1500 FT above the aerodrome below, then hold the plane straight and steady in line with the landing strip. Now reset the Directional Indicator to coincide with your compass heading. Again pull the DIRECTIONAL GYRO knob OUT to uncage the Gyro.

Take another quick look around outside the cockpit, and then check again the instruments. All OK.

In the next 5 minutes you could have travelled 15 miles or more.

To increase the r.p.m. push the AIR SCREW CONTROL LEVER forwards a touch FIRST, then move the THROTTLE LEVER.

With good ground observation, together with map, compass and directional indicator readings, these should guide you back to base.

 

 

LANDING THE SPITFIRE :-

 

GENERAL ADVICE FOR A SAFE LANDING : -

The Spitfire STALLS at at about 64 m.p.h. with FLAPS and WHEELS DOWN. Before the stall is reached the plane will give a warning shudder. If you are NOT COMFORTABLE with your approach, for ANY REASON at ANY TIME BEFORE LANDING, you must IMMEDIATELY push the THROTTLE FORWARD and ONCE PAST 120 m.p.h., start to CLIMB back up and ROUND AGAIN for another attempt. NEVER LOOSE SIGHT OF THE RUNWAY. In a Spitfire this entails adopting a STEADY AND CONTINUOUS CURVED APPROACH. On landing remember to be very CAUTIOUS with BRAKING. Too HARD on the BRAKES can TURN THE SPITFIRE OVER ON IT’S NOSE ! A good LANDING RUN requires about 310 yds and a TOUCH DOWN SPEED of 68 to 70 m.p.h. (just above the stall).

 

APPROACHING THE AERODROME : -

From around 1500 ft and as soon as you can see the Aerodrome once more, begin to THROTTLE BACK. Then REDUCE HEIGHT to BELOW 1000 ft and head for the DOWNWIND SIDE OF AIRFIELD. Cage the Directional Gyro now, to avoid possible damage on landing.

Check around the sky and down on the airfield to look for other planes on the move, as well as a glance at the instruments.

 

CIRCLE THE AERODROME : -

Notify control tower of intention to land. Then take a look at the windsock and along the landing strip.

With your LEFT HAND pull the COCKPIT HOOD RIGHT BACK, then push HALF OPEN the COCKPIT DOOR to lock the hood in the safety position.

FLYING DOWN WIND : -

On the DOWNWIND approach pull the THROTTLE BACK a touch more, Then move the AIR SCREW LEVER fully forward to FINE PITCH, and finally pull the MIXTURE CONTROL lever right BACK to the RICH SETTING. Use the throttle control alongside with working the control column to reduce the airspeed to below 180 m.p.h.

Then move your LEFT HAND OFF the THROTTLE Lever and OVER to the CONTROL STICK, and at the same time move your RIGHT HAND OVER to the UNDERCARRIAGE CONTROL LEVER. Lift it out of the TOP GATE SLOT and move it DOWN until the lever locks back into the BOTTOM GATE SLOT. Listen for the double clonk sound of the undercarriage, and then check the COCKPIT INDICATOR has changed from red to GREEN, to confirm that the wheels are now DOWN AND LOCKED.

OPEN the RADIATOR SHUTTER by pushing the stick fully FORWARD. Then pull the THROTTLE LEVER BACK a little more.

FLYING CROSS WIND : -

Start to turn into CROSSWIND. The airspeed indicator should now be reading about 140 m.p.h. It is time to press the FLAPS control switch DOWN.

The Altimeter should be reading about 250 ft above the Aerodrome.

Feel the Spitfire slow up as you begin the steady and continuous curved downward approach into wind, half a mile from the boundary hedge.

SIDESLIPPING your Spitfire is a useful way to LOOSE HEIGHT, while still keeping a curved approach. Keep a look out of the cockpit side at all times for a clear sky and clear runway coming up soon below.

 

TURNING INTO FINAL APPROACH, UPWIND : -

Move the Control Column gently over into the curve, down and back a bit. Glance at the airspeed indicator it should read about 95 m.p.h, and the altimeter about 150 ft above the aerodrome's recorded height above sea level. CLOSE the THROTTLE a touch more as you look down to see the approach of the airfield boundary fence coming up. EASE the COLUMN BACK more and CLOSE the THROTTLE. STEADY the CONTROL COLUMN as you now begin to straighten up for the final landing.

 

FINAL LANDING STAGE : -

Your speed is now about 85 m.p.h. as you look out of the hatch side, and shoot over the boundary fence about 100 ft off the ground. The grass is coming up fast now, this is it, the final approach straight in. You cannot see over the spinner anymore, but keep looking out of the cockpit sides to judge your landing. Watch the airspeed indicator too, (remember that to go below 65 m.p.h. will stall the plane, and it will drop like a stone).

Now EASE the CONTROL COLUMN RIGHT BACK and CLOSE the THROTTLE COMPLETELY around 70 m.p.h. at fifty feet, then forty feet off the ground, dropping fast in a glide. Can you sense the crosswind as you move the Control Column ailerons slightly to keep the Spitfire level ? Hold it with the CONTROL COLUMN right BACK, just for a moment above the ground, before the first bounce. Then a bump from the tail wheel, and another smaller rise and bounce, followed by a continuous jolting.

You are down, EASE the BRAKE LEVER ON and OFF GENTLY as the Spitfire rumbles along the grass. Keep looking out all around, and with more gentle braking the Spitfire finally rolls to a stop.

Your ground crew will be waving to direct you across to the parking bay.

Switch the FLAPS control LEVER UP and move the AIR SCREW CONTROL LEVER BACK into the COARSE POSITION, then use a burst of THROTTLE to change the PITCH.

With careful use of the Throttle and Brakes SWERVE your way over to the Parking Bay, keeping a watchful eye out of both sides of the cockpit.

 

Finally bring the Spitfire into wind and to a halt, then LOCK the BRAKES on the Control Column. Idle the Merlin engine briefly, PULL OUT the SLOW RUNNING CUT OUT (if fitted), holding it extended until the engine stops, or if not, turn the MASTER SWITCH OFF to cut the engine.

All you can now hear is the whirring gyros unwinding behind the instrument panel, and the feint smell of petrol, glycol and oil.

Flick the two MAGNETO SWITCHES down for OFF. PULL the FUELCOCK LEVERS down for OFF. Turn the RT switches OFF. DISCONNECT your RT lead and Oxygen bayonet connection. Release your Sutton Harness. Drop down door hatch, and exit the cockpit.

Source: https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?72714-SUPERMARINE-SPITFIRE-Take-off-and-Landing-Guide

The pinned topics in this forum are the best resource: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Eeagle%2Eru%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D179253&share_tid=179253&share_fid=74365&share_type=t

One of the most important things I've found when using instant action take offs is how the aircraft is initially set up when you spawn in. This applies to ALL taildraggers. For example, when you spawn into a Spit, the elevator trim is ALWAYS set to tail heavy (2 on the indicator). This can cause the Spit to lift off too early, causing a stall. Change the elevator trim to nose heavy (-1). This will help the tail to raise earlier, resulting in a better AOA so you don't tend to stall as you break ground.

Apply throttle slowly and steadily to 4 lbs to start rolling up, then to 8 lbs in about 6 seconds. Don't apply steady pressure to the rudder pedals. "Dance" on the pedals using short, quick taps on the pedals. I personally don't use rudder trim during take off on either the Spit or the Mustang. I control the "torque" by not advancing the throttle to quickly and by "dancing" on the rudder pedals.

Again, when you spawn into the cockpit, check all your settings. The Spit spawns with +2 tail heavy when it should be -1 nose heavy, and the Dora spawns in with trim set a zero (I believe) and with flaps down when it should be -1 nose heavy and flaps up. Those spawned settings can make your take off very difficult indeed.

I use a Warthog H.O.T.A.S. also. I don't use any curves, my saturations are set to 100, and my dead zones are set to 2.

+2 on the indicator is actually trim neutral setting, so the plane is not different to other DCS warbirds, as all of them spawn with trims in neutral rather than cruise settings.

I agree it makes the Spit a bit tail heavy though.

I'm afraid I must disagree. In my 40+ years as a military and civil aircraft mechanic, I have never seen a trim system that did not use "0" as the "neutral" trim point. Even if you add something that permanently changes the aircraft's center of gravity (CG), and therefore the "neutral" trim, you must reset the trim system so that "0" is the neutral base trim.

By "neutral trim" I meant zero position of the elevator trim tab. You may disagree, but that's the peculiar way the indicator operated on the real Spit. It's also mentioned in the DCS manual for it. Don't ask me why they did it this way, but then it's a vintage British plane, and by the law they always had a couple of quirky features in their cockpits which made no sense whatsoever :D.

:lol:

By "neutral trim" I meant zero position of the elevator trim tab. You may disagree, but that's the peculiar way the indicator operated on the real Spit. It's also mentioned in the DCS manual for it. Don't ask me why they did it this way, but then it's a vintage British plane, and by the law they always had a couple of quirky features in their cockpits which made no sense whatsoever :D.

LOL, well, I won''t argue with that! British and French engineering. It just doesn't make sense to me. When I spawn in on a take off instant action, it spawns in with the trim indicator at +2. The DCS manual and Chuck Owl's guide both say to set the trim indicator to -1 (one of them might said "1 nose heavy). That was my point to the original poster regarding take off, and why the +2 being neutral sounds odd.

It's indeed all about where the hell the reference "zero" position is for any adjustments, and I think in our case even a person programming default takeoff tutorial mission for the Spit thought by mistake it was in the middle of the scale, as I seem to recall you have to crank the arrow one notch below level to make the mission script proceed further.

The problem is that technically makes the plane three notches nose heavy - quite a bit! - and if someone new to DCS Spit tries to follow the following mission instructions to the letter (the instruction says to push the stick a little after liftoff to control the climbout!), the plane will immediately nosedive straight into the ground. I'm fascinated by the phenomenon of tutorial missions, which teach you how to kill yourself on takeoff :D.

Sorry Art, but you are wrong.

Trim 0 is centre scale. Watch Wags tutorial video again - he says he goes against the manual stating -1 and goes to 0 just prior to takeoff you see the trim indicator move to the mid-point of the scale.

The reason I suspect that the trim is set to the +2 position on spawn is that is the setting for landing; I don't know many pilots who re-set trims to neutral as part of the shut-down, certainly isn't in the pilots notes, ergo, when you climb back into the airframe the trims are generally still set as if for landing.

I always taxi (IRL) with my trim set all the way to tail heavy, to help keep the tail down and the prop clear of the ground. Maybe that's why you spawn like that.

Anyhow, the trim tabs are neutral when the needle points at 0, that is, the center of the scale. That's when they don't produce any lift in any direction that would deflect the elevators. Now in flight, at different speeds and power settings the neutral trim position of the aircraft will always vary, that's the beauty of piston engine planes with propellers.

DDF, Wag's comment neither contradicts what I wrote, nor confirms what you did. He doesn't say what the indication of neutral position of the tab is, he just says he prefers to set the arrow to "center position", nothing more, nothing less. I follow what the manual says about how the system is rigged, plus how the flight model reacts to the inputs. Not to mention the other dev team of the unnamed WWII sim modelling the indicator's operation in their recent Spit IX the same way as "ours". They must've based their work on some research and not cluelessly copying what ED studio did ;).

That being said, after a short test I admit now I've noticed the manual contradicts the external animation of the tab itself too. Using the magic of F2 cam, active pause and zoom one can see that flat arrow yields zero tab deflection as You say and heavy elevator down deflection (in cruise-ish power and speed settings), while arrow two notches up (supposedly "neutral" according to manual) yields downward tab deflection and zero elevator deflection. Not that it proves anything for good, as in DCS visuals are not tied to flight model calculations, but it certainly makes the whole matter even more confusing :D.

 

That's when they don't produce any lift in any direction that would deflect the elevators. Now in flight, at different speeds and power settings the neutral trim position of the aircraft will always vary, that's the beauty of piston engine planes with propellers.

A trim tab doesn't produce any lift. The trim tab simply deflects the control surface. You are correct about the trim tabs varying in flight. The higher your airspeed, the more lift your wing surfaces produce, so you trim nose down to counter that lift. The slower your airspeed, the less lift your wing surfaces produce, so you trim nose up. The Spit doesn't have fuel tanks in the wings, so there's no need to trim for less fuel in one wing than the other. The P-51 does, so it has aileron trim tabs. The Fw-190 Dora doesn't have internal wing tanks, but it has a single fixed, but bendable tab on the right-hand aileron and rudder (I'm not completely sure that the rudder has a tab, but I believe it does) that trims the aileron and rudder based on flight testing of each individual airplane at a specific airspeed.

A trim tab doesn't produce any lift. The trim tab simply deflects the control surface. You are correct about the trim tabs varying in flight. The higher your airspeed, the more lift your wing surfaces produce, so you trim nose down to counter that lift. The slower your airspeed, the less lift your wing surfaces produce, so you trim nose up. The Spit doesn't have fuel tanks in the wings, so there's no need to trim for less fuel in one wing than the other. The P-51 does, so it has aileron trim tabs. The Fw-190 Dora doesn't have internal wing tanks, but it has a single fixed, but bendable tab on the right-hand aileron and rudder (I'm not completely sure that the rudder has a tab, but I believe it does) that trims the aileron and rudder based on flight testing of each individual airplane at a specific airspeed.

:huh: That is exactly what his statement says, "it deflects air from the elevator " which is a control surface...

:huh: That is exactly what his statement says, "it deflects air from the elevator " which is a control surface...

Actually, what he said is quoted above my reply.

Actually, what he said is quoted above my reply.

Are you trying to troll or you just like to argue the Symantecs of the words used to say the same thing? It does effect the wings ability to generate lift...

DDF, Wag's comment neither contradicts what I wrote, nor confirms what you did. He doesn't say what the indication of neutral position of the tab is, he just says he prefers to set the arrow to "center position", nothing more, nothing less. I follow what the manual says about how the system is rigged, plus how the flight model reacts to the inputs. Not to mention the other dev team of the unnamed WWII sim modelling the indicator's operation in their recent Spit IX the same way as "ours". They must've based their work on some research and not cluelessly copying what ED studio did ;).

 

That being said, after a short test I admit now I've noticed the manual contradicts the external animation of the tab itself too. Using the magic of F2 cam, active pause and zoom one can see that flat arrow yields zero tab deflection as You say and heavy elevator down deflection (in cruise-ish power and speed settings), while arrow two notches up (supposedly "neutral" according to manual) yields downward tab deflection and zero elevator deflection. Not that it proves anything for good, as in DCS visuals are not tied to flight model calculations, but it certainly makes the whole matter even more confusing :D.

I think I might have found the source of all the confusion. The Trimmer section on page 63 of the DCS Spitfire manual states:

"The neutral position of elevator trim on the indicator is marked by 2 bars from the middle position towards "NOSE UP". Two full revolutions of the wheel are required to move the trimmer from the arrow's middle position to the extreme end."

I think the "bars" of which they speak are the ridges on the trim wheel itself. Also, I moved the wheel from stop (-4) to stop (+4) and I believe the total movement was two full revolutions from stop to stop, not from the arrow's middle position to the extreme end. One clockwise revolution takes you from -4 to 0 on the indicator, and one clockwise revolution takes you from 0 to +4. So neutral would be two ridges clockwise from the center position of the trim wheel and the indicator still indicates 0.

@ Irishlad200000, I apologize for hijacking your thread. My bottom line advice for taking off is to use either the manual or Charlie O's guide for takeoff, and then experiment with different settings and such to determine which suits you best. Then practice, practice, and practice some more. Even though I can usually takeoff OK now, I still end up in a smoking crater some of the time.

Are you trying to troll or you just like to argue the Symantecs of the words used to say the same thing? It does effect the wings ability to generate lift...

What he said is quote "That's when they don't produce any lift in any direction that would deflect the elevators." That statement implies that a trim tab deflects the elevators by producing either a positive or negative lift. They don't. They deflect a control surface to cause a change in the roll, pitch, or yaw of the airplane to relieve the pilot's workload. They have nothing to do with affecting the wing's ability to generate lift. Many people on this forum are complete novices when it comes to how aircraft fly. I want to make sure that they see the correct information.

In anticipation of you questioning my credentials, I've been an aircraft mechanic for more than 40 years. I was a hydraulics/pneumatics mechanic on F-4 Phantoms and UH-1E Helicopters in the U.S.M.C. I've modified B-52Ds, B747s, and B727s for Boeing. I was a flight line mechanic for Cessna on C441 Conquest twin turboprop airplanes and Citation II Business Jets. I hold a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Airman certificate for Mechanic with ratings of Airframe and Powerplant. I was a technical writer on the F404-GE-400 engine manuals for GE that were used on the first production F/A-18A and B models, and I wrote engine certification regulations for the FAA.

I don't troll, and I don't argue semantics. I correct misinformation.

That statement implies that a trim tab deflects the elevators by producing either a positive or negative lift.

That is exactly what I said, because that is precisely how they work. You deflect the trim tab, which in turn changes the chord line of the elevator, which changes its AoA and Cy, and thus increases or decreases lift on the elevator, in order to help the pilot deflect it one way or the other.

They deflect a control surface to cause a change in the roll, pitch, or yaw of the airplane to relieve the pilot's workload

Exactly. And how do they do that? They way I described. I didn't say anything about the wings producing more lift, that's nonsense. (well ,very indirectly: trim tab goes down, that makes the elevator go up, which decreases the AoA of the horizontal stabilizer, which makes the tail go down, which increases AoA of the wings, and therefore more lift is generated on the wings, but we're not talking about that, are we?) Lift isn't generated only on the wings of an aircraft, and lift doesn't always "point upwards" as many people imagine.