F-16 evaded SIX R-27ER missiles!

OK. That would be cheating. They should not be reacting simply having locked them at that range with EOS. If you had gotten closer before locking them up, you would have seen them react to you regardless of what you were doing--lock, no lock, Nav mode, whatever.

 

There are two major differences between our tracks. The first is that you are approaching from roughly co-altitude, while I'm about 500 m below. The other is that your F-16 has a wingman, while mine does not. Without a wingman there's no possibility for the AI to spot me. His own aircraft blocks his view of my approach.

 

As far as the wingman is concerned, it may be that the sim doesn't bother with the niceties of whether or not the wingman can "see" and simply takes it as a given. That's one of those things that can only be determined by further testing...which I don't plan to undertake. :) I guess we already know that the AI reaction to threat is tied to the "lockup" and not the launch.

Thanks Iron, I appreciate the time you have put into this so far, and sharing your knowledge. I guess no game is perfect. Can I ask, if I wanted to go online, is there a noob friendly server that you would recommend? Or that anyone would recommend (Frostie etc) Thanks.

Just for anyone that's interested in this. I reran the test with myself at 2000m altitude and a single F-16 at 3000m so I was coming in below him. Same result. As soon as I lock him up he takes evasive action when there is no way he should. This doesnt need to be discussed further, the AI cheats and that's all there is to it, at least for the moment. Just wanted to mention that it made no difference.

Just for anyone that's interested in this. I reran the test with myself at 2000m altitude and a single F-16 at 3000m so I was coming in below him. Same result. As soon as I lock him up he takes evasive action when there is no way he should. This doesnt need to be discussed further, the AI cheats and that's all there is to it, at least for the moment. Just wanted to mention that it made no difference.

Remember, the how AI reacting have to do with the weapons they carry. We can discuss here hours. If you don’t show the track we all can do guesses. The .trk better. I never see payloads in a .acmi

Just for anyone that's interested in this. I reran the test with myself at 2000m altitude and a single F-16 at 3000m so I was coming in below him. Same result. As soon as I lock him up he takes evasive action when there is no way he should. This doesnt need to be discussed further, the AI cheats and that's all there is to it, at least for the moment. Just wanted to mention that it made no difference.

Perhaps the AI is simply programmed to respond to a lock event regardless of the type.

In that case a straightforward fix would be to expand that lock check to ignore an IR lock where no radar is used (e.g. in the case of short range EOS locks where laser is used to determine range).

I'm interested if the same thing would happen if e.g. an Su-25 is used and locks on the target with R-60M missiles?

Perhaps the AI is simply programmed to respond to a lock event regardless of the type.

 

In that case a straightforward fix would be to expand that lock check to ignore an IR lock where no radar is used (e.g. in the case of short range EOS locks where laser is used to determine range).

 

I'm interested if the same thing would happen if e.g. an Su-25 is used and locks on the target with R-60M missiles?

Wish it was that simple:

Here there is no reaction at all, even after the first F-16 explodes. I've reflown this several times increasing the range (in case it had something to do with the radar kicking in to provide range information), reducing the range, etc. Perhaps it's just that there's a narrow "sweet spot" where they can't see you. At any rate, from what I can tell, if they "see" you, they react to the EOS lock rather than the launch which shouldn't be.

FWIW, I tried with the Su-25 Fi0 and there was no reaction but I've had the same result in the Su-27 as well.

If anyone wants to experiment with this a bit more, I've attached the test mission and one of the tracks as well. I keep telling myself that I'm done but curiosity keeps drawing me back. But maybe, this time, I really am.

Su-27 vs F-16x2.trk

Su-27 vs F16x2 EOS.miz

Thanks Iron, I appreciate the time you have put into this so far, and sharing your knowledge. I guess no game is perfect. Can I ask, if I wanted to go online, is there a noob friendly server that you would recommend? Or that anyone would recommend (Frostie etc) Thanks.

I'd highly recommend the 104th server to get your experience up quickly, plus plenty of experience on their teamspeak.

If you want an easier ride take the Growling Sidewinder server.

As for a dynamic campaign get discord and join DDCS you can find friendly helpers on the discord voice channel (being in Discord channel mandatory).

Or go Buddyspike BlueFlag when you are a bit more independent and understand how to use 'Simple Radio' .

Beware these dynamic campaign servers have payload restrictions, lives etc.

..."sweet spot"...

Max range.

Max range.

:) In this case, not even that. I’ve been close enough to reach out and touch them.

Remember, the how AI reacting have to do with the weapons they carry. We can discuss here hours. If you don’t show the track we all can do guesses. The .trk better. I never see payloads in a .acmi

I have already added a track showing the issue. Please see additional tracks below. All three tracks are with radar OFF.

2XF16's without lock on and coming up right beside them: F-16S Evade-1.zip

2xF16's with EOS lock on and 1000m below: F-16S Evade-2.zip

1xF16 with EOS lock on and 1000m below: F-16S Evade-3.zip

The first track is to show that I can literally fly right behind them (so they could easily eyeball me - realistic situation) but yet they do not take evasive action. It's only once I actually pass them they take action. So I feel this rules out them being able to 'see' me when Im behind them.

The second track is to show that coming in underneath them with radar off and simply locking on via EOS causes them to take the evasive action I have mentioned previously. This is an unrealistic situation as they have no way to detect this lock in their cockpit. I do not accept the argument of the wingman possibly spotted me, as the first track shows they do not react to visual spotting until I am level with them / passing them.

The third track is the same as the second, only there is now only 1 F-16 to rule out the wingman spotting me (even though I feel this is definitely not the case anyway). Again, he flies normally until the EOS lock, and then takes evasive action

I'd highly recommend the 104th server to get your experience up quickly, plus plenty of experience on their teamspeak.

If you want an easier ride take the Growling Sidewinder server.

 

As for a dynamic campaign get discord and join DDCS you can find friendly helpers on the discord voice channel (being in Discord channel mandatory).

Or go Buddyspike BlueFlag when you are a bit more independent and understand how to use 'Simple Radio' .

Beware these dynamic campaign servers have payload restrictions, lives etc.

Great, thanks.

Wish it was that simple:

 

 

Here there is no reaction at all, even after the first F-16 explodes. I've reflown this several times increasing the range (in case it had something to do with the radar kicking in to provide range information), reducing the range, etc. Perhaps it's just that there's a narrow "sweet spot" where they can't see you. At any rate, from what I can tell, if they "see" you, they react to the EOS lock rather than the launch which shouldn't be.

 

FWIW, I tried with the Su-25 Fi0 and there was no reaction but I've had the same result in the Su-27 as well.

 

If anyone wants to experiment with this a bit more, I've attached the test mission and one of the tracks as well. I keep telling myself that I'm done but curiosity keeps drawing me back. But maybe, this time, I really am.

Thanks for posting these. I downloaded your tracks and I "took control" and just like you, I was able to lock them up and no evasive action straight away, however I didn't fire the ET and just kept flying closer to the bandits and they did take evasive action! As we can see from my first track here that I was able to get close to them without this happening, with the only difference being the lock on, in your track.. Please see "F-16S Evade-4.zip". It's just the one you uploaded which I took control of.

Thanks.

F-16S Evade-1.zip

F-16S Evade-2.zip

F-16S Evade-3.zip

F-16S Evade-4.zip

AI update is what we all are waiting for - one of the most wanted DCS thing.

I don't know where it comes from but there is some ongoing feeling that you have to be ready to go online. You don't. Your PC otoh has to :)

It’s true. No need to feel nervous going online, I use to suffer from that

Get yourself tacview then get online and get shot down a lot, the only way you're going to learn what to do after the first missile launch.

Fighting AI is a sure way to pick up bad habits for a real PvP fight in MP. Frostie nailed it on the head above ^^

 

No shortcuts. Experience and practice is king.

Thanks guys. I do have TacView already Frostie, I watch it after every single match. It's a really great bit of software. In fact, it's the reason why I hate AMRAAMS so much as I can see clearly how ridiculously well they track lol (and how easily fooled the 27ERs are by Chaff...)

Just for anyone that's interested in this. I reran the test with myself at 2000m altitude and a single F-16 at 3000m so I was coming in below him. Same result. As soon as I lock him up he takes evasive action when there is no way he should. This doesnt need to be discussed further, the AI cheats and that's all there is to it, at least for the moment. Just wanted to mention that it made no difference.

It's worth bearing in mind that the real Su-27 has a combined radar / EOS mode whereby if you want to launch a SARH missile at an aircraft but the radar can't get a lock it will use the EOS as a sort of radar director to illuminate the target for the missile.

I don't know if the in-game Su-27 models this, but it might not be quite as simple as the AI F-16 being able to detect an EOS lock.

The Fights against AI are not good enough to say I have become a good pilot. Many Pilots here already know all the issues you show in your tracks. I advice you use the combats against AI to learn:

1-How evade one or multiple missiles

2-Learn when is the best moment to launch the R-27, in the right distance and in the right angle he is respect your nose.

3-learn dogfight

4-Learn your weapons weaknesses.

AI have many advantages in comparison with humans.

What you can do. In mission editor do some variations in the AI skill previous your fights and then you will get different results with less or more reactions. Also keep in mind F-16 have a very good vision field from the cockpit.

I also do not recommend use R-27T/ET against the AI. As I told you before, AI know even which missile you are going to launch just from the moment you pull the trigger. So ignore the super smart capabilities of AI and use it better to learn the above mentioned instead look for victory.

@Fighting Falcon,

Would you do me a favor? Just for chuckles, create a brand new test mission using the Su-27 rather than the the J-11A and try again. Don't swap out the aircraft in an existing mission.

It's worth bearing in mind that the real Su-27 has a combined radar / EOS mode whereby if you want to launch a SARH missile at an aircraft but the radar can't get a lock it will use the EOS as a sort of radar director to illuminate the target for the missile.

 

I don't know if the in-game Su-27 models this, but it might not be quite as simple as the AI F-16 being able to detect an EOS lock.

Hey thanks for comment. What you describe is starting with radar on, and the aircraft turning on EOS to assist with lock, but this is different. And regarding the other way round, as far as I know the aircraft will only enable the radar by itself, if I have the radar turned off, and then launch a radar guided missile. However I went ahead and conducted a test regarding the radar, in that I flew behind the bandit and enabled radar, to see if this would cause the bandit to notice me or take evasive action. They did not take any action when I turned radar on. However once I locked on, they did take action. This appears to rule out the radar having any effect in this situation. I have added "F-16 Evade-new-2.zip" track that shows this.

Also I think if radar was being turned on automatically, it would show the radar on light on the cockpit dashboard.

In my opinion I think turning radar on, SHOULD cause the AI to take immediate action as this would begin to 'paint' them. It's strange that they do not, but yet they do take action when I lock them in a way they shouldn't be able to detect.

The Fights against AI are not good enough to say I have become a good pilot. Many Pilots here already know all the issues you show in your tracks. I advice you use the combats against AI to learn:

 

1-How evade one or multiple missiles

2-Learn when is the best moment to launch the R-27, in the right distance and in the right angle he is respect your nose.

3-learn dogfight

4-Learn your weapons weaknesses.

 

AI have many advantages in comparison with humans.

 

What you can do. In mission editor do some variations in the AI skill previous your fights and then you will get different results with less or more reactions. Also keep in mind F-16 have a very good vision field from the cockpit.

 

I also do not recommend use R-27T/ET against the AI. As I told you before, AI know even which missile you are going to launch just from the moment you pull the trigger. So ignore the super smart capabilities of AI and use it better to learn the above mentioned instead look for victory.

Thanks. I think my initial point did fall into at least one of those categories regarding the F16 bandit avoiding six of my ERs. I'm also aware AI issues have been talked about many times before but I have not read a post regarding this specific issue that I am now describing (taking evasive action from a lock only), so I think maybe its OK to discuss it, and to still hope for better AI in the future. But I do take your points thanks.

I found a guide on this forum written by a user, regarding flying the flanker, and the guy said the exact opposite to you, claiming the ERs were trash and to only use the ETs lol. I guess everyones opinion is different. Also Im not sure if he was referring to AI or to real players. You can see guide I am referring to below, if you are interested.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=150315&highlight=r-27er

@Fighting Falcon,

Would you do me a favor? Just for chuckles, create a brand new test mission using the Su-27 rather than the the J-11A and try again. Don't swap out the aircraft in an existing mission.

I went ahead and did what you suggested man, but still the same outcome. Please see "F-16 Evade-new-1.zip"

Thanks.

F-16 Evade-new-1.zip

F-16 Evade-new-2.zip

Because we are talking about AI. Maybe this post was talking about PVP combat.

Hey thanks for comment. What you describe is starting with radar on, and the aircraft turning on EOS to assist with lock, but this is different. And regarding the other way round, as far as I know the aircraft will only enable the radar by itself, if I have the radar turned off, and then launch a radar guided missile. However I went ahead and conducted a test regarding the radar, in that I flew behind the bandit and enabled radar, to see if this would cause the bandit to notice me or take evasive action. They did not take any action when I turned radar on. However once I locked on, they did take action. This appears to rule out the radar having any effect in this situation. I have added "F-16 Evade-new-2.zip" track that shows this.

 

Also I think if radar was being turned on automatically, it would show the radar on light on the cockpit dashboard.

 

In my opinion I think turning radar on, SHOULD cause the AI to take immediate action as this would begin to 'paint' them. It's strange that they do not, but yet they do take action when I lock them in a way they shouldn't be able to detect.

 

 

 

Thanks. I think my initial point did fall into at least one of those categories regarding the F16 bandit avoiding six of my ERs. I'm also aware AI issues have been talked about many times before but I have not read a post regarding this specific issue that I am now describing (taking evasive action from a lock only), so I think maybe its OK to discuss it, and to still hope for better AI in the future. But I do take your points thanks.

 

I found a guide on this forum written by a user, regarding flying the flanker, and the guy said the exact opposite to you, claiming the ERs were trash and to only use the ETs lol. I guess everyones opinion is different. Also Im not sure if he was referring to AI or to real players. You can see guide I am referring to below, if you are interested.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=150315&highlight=r-27er

 

 

 

I went ahead and did what you suggested man, but still the same outcome. Please see "F-16 Evade-new-1.zip"

 

Thanks.

Thanks for taking the time. At least we know that it's 1) not some sort of difference between the J-11A and the Su-27 and 2) not something to do with our respective installations.

As far as the AI's behavior is concerned, we often get two different results. That's due, it seems, mainly to methodology. It took awhile for me to realize this.

If you set the two aircraft groups more than 10 km apart at mission start (as I often do), you will see the F-16s react when the range closes to 10km with or without a lock. OTOH, if you set up the mission (as you often do) with a range that's less than 10km at mission start, the AI fails to react either with or without a lock. You'll see the difference, if you take your "F-16 Evade-new-2.trk", take control, and slow to allow the range to open. Once you're outside of 10km, close the range again and watch the reaction.

You are correct that, with EOS as the primary channel, the radar only provides range information to the system. That changes if you select a SARH missile and press the launch button. Then radar becomes primary and the systems transitions to a hard radar lock. But that's obviously not what we're talking about.

The -27ER is an okay missile. The complaint in the guide you reference is that it prefers a chaff diet and takes at least two to kill. That last, at least, can often be said for the AIM-120, especially in the hands of the AI. If one takes me out, it's not usually the first, often not the second, but most often the third. That's why you want the AI defensive ASAP.

If you set the two aircraft groups more than 10 km apart at mission start (as I often do), you will see the F-16s react when the range closes to 10km with or without a lock. OTOH, if you set up the mission (as you often do) with a range that's less than 10km at mission start, the AI fails to react either with or without a lock.

I played around last night but without the patience to test over 10km separation. So I was flying a little lower and close behind the F-16 bl52d. Any paint from EOS in Su-27 (or the moment I turned the system on) made the bandit react. I even tried with Bf-109 for fun - radar paint had no effect but as soon I turn on EOS - reaction :)

I played around last night but without the patience to test over 10km separation. So I was flying a little lower and close behind the F-16 bl52d. Any paint from EOS in Su-27 (or the moment I turned the system on) made the bandit react. I even tried with Bf-109 for fun - radar paint had no effect but as soon I turn on EOS - reaction :)

:) Well... I guess we can safely conclude that the AI could use just a teeny bit of improvement.

:) Well... I guess we can safely conclude that the AI could use just a teeny bit of improvement.

Indeed! Thanks for all your help testing.

Thanks to everyone who shared in the discussion.

Im going to hop over to the F-15c now for a while to see how I get on there. I'm looking forward to see how it compares to the Su-27!

...

Im going to hop over to the F-15c now for a while to see how I get on there. I'm looking forward to see how it compares to the Su-27!

DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T STEP THROUGH THAT PORTAL!!!

FIGHTINGFALCON? ... FightingFalcon? ???

Damn! Another one lost to the Dark Side...

DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T STEP THROUGH THAT PORTAL!!!

 

FIGHTINGFALCON? ... FightingFalcon? ???

 

Damn! Another one lost to the Dark Side...

:cry:

:D

DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T DO IT!!! DON'T STEP THROUGH THAT PORTAL!!!

 

FIGHTINGFALCON? ... FightingFalcon? ???

 

Damn! Another one lost to the Dark Side...

My friend there is nothing that stop this behavior. The Russian missiles are wrong simulated by ED and The fighter Collection is a western company owner actions in Russian developers company.

I will keep playing missions made by me in Single Player. This situation is a nightmare for the people that want more Russian fighters.

The Russian missiles stages guidance are not simulated. From the moment that R-27 leave the rail the semi active head seeker get activated giving sooner warning missile launched to every western RWR (every one, even A-10A) and this is a fake simulation that only help F-15, F-18 and western hardware in this simulator. The situation awareness for western RWR is enhanced by developers.

The missile drag value for all Russian missiles is exaggerated by developers. the mark of not scape range (second mark from above for left range mark when target lock) is exaggerated downgraded by the drag value that developer input in this calculation. See video and go straight to the simulator and replicate same situation with all values from the video.

All the western aircraft have enough time to turn around because all the Russian missiles get draggy by developers.

They don't want simulate R-27P missiles variant even when have been official comments from Russian staff those missiles are in development from 90s:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27p1_-_r-27ep1.html

R-27T guidance system have an updated proportional navigation method with the target lock-on. Our R-27T get decoy from the moment it leave the rail in a wrong simulation by developers:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27t1_-_r-27et1.html

R-27ER in our Sim it is just a semi active head seeker homing guidance from the moment it leave the rail. This is wrong and we have years saying them it is wrong with the result R-27 get decoy sooner in his guidance phase:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27r1_-_r-27er1.html

and after all that said. keep an eye in this thread that after some Trolls attack will be closed soon.

And know what! take a look in Aim-54. It is the Iskander Ballistic missile Air-Air variant by ED. no ECM, no maneuvers, no radar land clutter (it is a mini Maverick in is radar?) affect this 1000 lbs weight missile.

Just in case this example work for somebody: after many times destroyed shelters in bluefor airfield with a Russian missile that work perfect for that. Two weeks after, the value for shelters was modified with twice strongest value, with the unrealistic result the shelter get not destroyed with a single missile. This situation happen in an anti redfor online server and online tracks file was analyzed. Shelters value changed after that in official DCS version...

Guys, dicussing if the R-27 famliy is undermodeled is exosted to bits... even ED said it needs the update and that they plan to update them.

So basicliy only thing which can be done it requesting that they increse the priority of the updated since I think we all agree that the Red air needs a bit of love and that its undermodeling is hurting a big part of the community.

I can see it becoming the priority once they work on the Kuznetsov

The missile drag value for all Russian missiles is exaggerated by developers. the mark of not scape range (second mark from above for left range mark when target lock) is exaggerated downgraded by the drag value that developer input in this calculation. See video and go straight to the simulator and replicate same situation with all values from the video.

 

 

All the western aircraft have enough time to turn around because all the Russian missiles get draggy by developers.

 

They don't want simulate R-27P missiles variant even when have been official comments from Russian staff those missiles are in development from 90s:

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27p1_-_r-27ep1.html

 

R-27T guidance system have an updated proportional navigation method with the target lock-on. Our R-27T get decoy from the moment it leave the rail in a wrong simulation by developers:

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27t1_-_r-27et1.html

 

R-27ER in our Sim it is just a semi active head seeker homing guidance from the moment it leave the rail. This is wrong and we have years saying them it is wrong with the result R-27 get decoy sooner in his guidance phase:

 

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27r1_-_r-27er1.html

 

and after all that said. keep an eye in this thread that after some Trolls attack will be closed soon.

 

And know what! take a look in Aim-54. It is the Iskander Ballistic missile Air-Air variant by ED. no ECM, no maneuvers, no radar land clutter (it is a mini Maverick in is radar?) affect this 1000 lbs weight missile.

R-27T/ET:

The missile guidance system employs an updated proportional navigation method with the target lock-on accomplished on the suspension under the carrier.

- Proportional navigation means the missile use lead pursuit to target to save energy. First Fox 2 used pure pursuit which exhaust energy quicker Vs manoeuvring targets.

- this page does confirm that the missile is LOBL (Lock On Before Launch).

So there is nothing wrong if the missile goes for flare at any moment.

In fact all Fox 2 from this generation in the game are prone to go for the flares. This isn’t a biased against R-27T/ET

R-27P/EP: is there any sign of widespread use of this missile by Russian Air Force ?

I will re-test defence against AIM-54, but at Tomcat release I tried against IA F-14B (and in my book IA uses the same missiles as players), and I was perfectly able to beam AIM-54 with M-2000C when I spotted the “M” on RWR.

This is an early video. Note that the shooter is largely supersonic in the test.

You can see how to evade AIM-54, but it will be very hard to support a R-27ER guidance while AIM-54 is incoming.