F-16 evaded SIX R-27ER missiles!

Been doing a lot of testing recently in mission editor. Just flew a mission with myself in an Su-27 loaded with 6 R-27ER missiles against an F-16a with 6 AIM-120b missiles. It managed to avoid every single missile I launched at it (all of them)!

I launched my first missile halfway between the maximum and the halfway distance marker as ive learned this normally ties in with the range the AIM-120 is launched at. I didn't expect this first missile to hit but my aim was to make the enemy go defensive. Anyway so I launch the missile then crank to the right while also decreasing altitude, then I swing back left and as I go past the centre point I launch another missile, and continue cranking to the left and decreasing altitude, then swing back to the right, launching another missile as I pass centre. I repeat this process until I have zero missiles remaining.

I ensure to keep my radar lock on at all times, making sure to not go outside the lock zone. I am confused as to why SIX radar locked missiles didn't hit.

I also have a couple of additional related questions.

1. When I radar lock a bandit and launch an R-27ER. And then launch a second, or third etc R-27ER, while keeping the radar lock, do all missiles that are still in flight keep tracking? Or is it just the last missile?

2. It seems that the AIM-120 is an excellent missile both at BVR and ALSO WVR modes. This one missile can be launched BVR and then when WVR it immediately goes "Pitbull" so is actually in this way more dangerous. It seems the R-27ER is a BVR only missile. So a bandit armed only with AIM-120s is capable both at long AND close range whereas an aircraft armed with only R-27ERs might as well have nothing when in close range. Is this correct? If so, do any of the Russian missiles have any advantage over the American ones? I'm starting to think Russian aircraft / missiles are seriously disadvantaged in this game, and that the AIM-120 is overpowered in comparison.

Thanks for any input.

1) All missiles track, as long as they didn't pass it or got spoofed by chaff.

2) Take the ET, long ranged IR missile. Also overpowered compared to the AIM-9, no?

Real life isn't balanced m8

1) All missiles track, as long as they didn't pass it or got spoofed by chaff.

 

2) Take the ET, long ranged IR missile. Also overpowered compared to the AIM-9, no?

 

Real life isn't balanced m8

Thanks.

I tried the ET and it avoided them as well. Thats a different missile though, so you need to carry two different missiles to be competitive against just the AIM-120?

Yes that is true, and if in real life the American missiles are superior to Russian then there is nothing I can about that. In which case I will simply switch to F-15 and start learning that instead.

Just tried the exact same mission and simply replaced the F-16 with an F-15 and downed him within 3 shots!

There's more than just missiles. Just doing snakes towards an enemy doesn't always help as you experienced. Try different ranges (closer), sneaking, going from below to up, evade, get creative.

And by the way, there are already tons of threads like this around. A quick browse wouldn't harm for sure!

Oh, and I almost forgot. Wasting multiple missiles on an enemy isn't so surprising, especially after a good enemy (or when you are a tiny bit too trigger happy).

I have employed those methods before in different missions, however it doesn't change the fact this F-16 was able to avoid six radar locked missiles, at least 3 of which were within the 'guaranteed' kill zone.

Perhaps this is normal DCS behavior, I just find it hard to accept. I could understand it if I lost lock, or if I fired all of them outside max range etc. I'm sure there is some logical reason, most likely something I did wrong.

They also can drop Chaff, check that. Try again and see if your missiles go after the chaff (I'm sure they will do that, how realistic that is, idk)

The R-27 is inferior to the AIM-120. Active missiles were designed to outperform Semi Active ones. The R-77 is the counterpart to the AIM-120. The Su-27 we have doesn't carry it, but the J-11 does.

If you're fighting the AIM-120 with R-27's you want to get a kill at long range, or push for a close range kill with IR missiles because they will allow you to turn and run if you need to. Outside of the Hornet's AIM-9X, the R-73 is the best WVR missile, so always carry at least 2. Also try to fire R-27's below your target's altitude to avoid ground clutter disrupting the lock.

You can also put the Western aircraft on a more level playing field by giving them SARH missiles like the AIM-7 which is more comparable to the R-27.

The R-27 is inferior to the AIM-120. Active missiles were designed to outperform Semi Active ones. The R-77 is the counterpart to the AIM-120. The Su-27 we have doesn't carry it, but the J-11 does.

 

 

If you're fighting the AIM-120 with R-27's you want to get a kill at long range, or push for a close range kill with IR missiles because they will allow you to turn and run if you need to. Outside of the Hornet's AIM-9X, the R-73 is the best WVR missile, so always carry at least 2. Also try to fire R-27's below your target's altitude to avoid ground clutter disrupting the lock.

 

 

 

You can also put the Western aircraft on a more level playing field by giving them SARH missiles like the AIM-7 which is more comparable to the R-27.

Thanks for the tips Exorcet :)

Not unusual. He may have been notching plus chaff and lower than you. The R-27 is good close in a tail chase but with the ER just be conscious of the long fuse time after firing before it starts to maneuver. The R-27 does not have advanced guidance so it suffers during maneuvering

It’s russian doctrine to often fire two differently guided missiles at once, you need to fire infrared first or else it may lock onto the radar guided missile in front of it.

As mentioned before this is a very well covered topic and you will get many of the answers you need searching here google or YouTube

Upload your track please

Not unusual. He may have been notching plus chaff and lower than you. The R-27 is good close in a tail chase but with the ER just be conscious of the long fuse time after firing before it starts to maneuver. The R-27 does not have advanced guidance so it suffers during maneuvering

It’s russian doctrine to often fire two differently guided missiles at once, you need to fire infrared first or else it may lock onto the radar guided missile in front of it.

 

As mentioned before this is a very well covered topic and you will get many of the answers you need searching here google or YouTube

Not unusual for a bogey to avoid six radar locked missiles? Thanks for the tip about the fuse timers. Yeah you aren't joking there, ive been running more tests and the R-27 is so easily fooled its hilarious, wheras it takes a lot more to fool the AMRAAM. Totally different league of a missile it seems.

Yeah he was notching and chaffing but I also was notching and chaffing and found it much more difficult to evade his missiles.

Yeah I have found some posts however some of them are over a year old and I don't want to reply and be accused of thread Necroing. And to be fair I didn't find anywhere discussing this exact thing so I thought I would make a new post.

Upload your track please

I didnt actually save the track at the time, are they saved automatically anywhere? I DO have the Tacview file though should I upload that?

EDIT - Please see attachment. Just extract the zip. I had to make it a zip otherwise it wouldnt upload.

Tacview-20190804-173204-DCS.zip.acmi.zip

Amraams are more CM resistant.

It’s not like you’ll waste six missiles everytime, every shot is different. With skill you’ll increase the number of high PK shots you make. Some of the best ways to understand are on YouTube. People have been testing and making videos about this since lock on. Things are different now, but there is a lot of info out there that still applies.

We’re you high up? Firing high up while your opponent is lower or dives down is just asking to throw those ERs away especially at long range.

You’re comparing to amraams but they are different eras and types. You can wreak havoc with R-27ERs against amraams but it does take practice. The most comparable missile is the most modern sparrow or super 530D. If you want to try fox 3s fly J-11 with R-77, just remember they are shorter range then amraams.

EDIT: R-27s are due for a CFD rework but no word when it will happen

Sorry if I come off harsh. At a certain point it’s hard to learn verbally past the point once you know how the systems function. Seeing everything for yourself, wether watching replays on YouTube or your own tacviews is a crucial bit of understanding how to visualize the amount of danger you are in. On YouTube there is a lot of videos that will show tac view side by side a cockpit replay, so you see how the two relate. Just search flaming cliffs r-27 amraam DCS and you’ll be in the right ballpark.

Sorry for multiple post, I always liked the representation of notching in this guide

https://www.mudspike.com/dcs-f-15c-combat-guide-for-beginners/

I didnt actually save the track at the time, are they saved automatically anywhere? I DO have the Tacview file though should I upload that?

 

EDIT - Please see attachment. Just extract the zip. I had to make it a zip otherwise it wouldnt upload.

Ok. you need to take care of your launch momentum. You are wasting you missiles in a enemy fighter is doing notching like crazy. The two first missiles good done, because you force him to go in a serious defense, but you forgot keep diving to stay in his fighting altitude OR below, that's why your missile lost tracking (try to stay in same altitude or below in a low altitude combat specially at the last stage of the missile flight) Now, the next 3 missiles were trash drooped because his nose was in a very wide angle respect to your radar. You can control this angle with the arrow target angle indicator left-bottom in your HUD. The 6Th missile is What surprised me a lot how went for the chaff as crazy (notice how The F-16 knew this last chaff was enough...). the last big mistake is you are rolling while guiding missiles, why?, never do that while guiding missiles. (this F-16 AI is the most smart AI I ever seen in DCS, seem they also try to screw the human RU fighter also again AI. take a look in a RU fighter doing maneuvers in a combat they are like the most silly and retarded AI pilots of the Earth. They are programing this situation).

Next time that happen to you, after the first two missiles if he turn into notching like crazy, turn your radar off and he will lost his RWR position signal for you (for an Human, this AI is a cheat). you dive low while locked him with EOS and wait if he turn onto you (now he is lost), if he do, you fry him with a very close missile to terminate him. if he keep flare dispensing as crazy do not launch any missile until he pause his flare, then огонь!

It’s common to think that if you haven’t lost lock how can the R-27 be notched, but the datalink doesn’t give terminal guidance signals, it still has to use its seeker which has is pulse Doppler.

The reason you shouldn’t roll a lot with a radar missile lock is these planes have a fixed ground filter on the bottom. It rotates on American jets so even if you roll upside down it blocks clutter, but in a soviet plane the fixed filter rotates with you, so you run the risk of losing lock if the target is in the wrong place once inverted.

The AI often maneuvers perfectly, you will be surprised after training against highly skilled AI that you will be a death machine once you’re against fallible human targets online who don’t react instantly to any missile.

Also good tip... every time he turn into notch in a decent range... turn your radar off leaving only EOS lock. Your radar lock is more situation awareness for enemy of your position. Avoid that, use your EOS as much as possible and launch missiles in the best smart moments to secure a kill.

If you are in Su-27 is even better because you can see his bearing with datalink (well not sure if they already fix when you fight human. Amazingly datalink is broken without work against human only in RU fighters... for a long time and no fix until date)

Install tacview such that you can analyse exactly what happened. That’s likely to give you some better ideas on how to respond to your foes.

Install tacview such that you can analyse exactly what happened. That’s likely to give you some better ideas on how to respond to your foes.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3999375&postcount=13

As I understand it this guard does not exist on the US jets at all - a feature of using a slotted planar array antenna vs. the twisted inverse-cassegrain (ie. parabolic) antenna that the Russians used.

I could easily be wrong on the existence/non-existence of the guard though.

The reason you shouldn’t roll a lot with a radar missile lock is these planes have a fixed ground filter on the bottom. It rotates on American jets so even if you roll upside down it blocks clutter, but in a soviet plane the fixed filter rotates with you, so you run the risk of losing lock if the target is in the wrong place once inverted.

As I understand it this guard does not exist on the US jets at all - a feature of using a slotted planar array antenna vs. the twisted inverse-cassegrain (ie. parabolic) antenna that the Russians used.

 

 

I could easily be wrong on the existence/non-existence of the guard though.

You are. It was pull out in a thread not long ago:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3976638&postcount=4

Been doing a lot of testing recently in mission editor. Just flew a mission with myself in an Su-27 loaded with 6 R-27ER missiles against an F-16a with 6 AIM-120b missiles. It managed to avoid every single missile I launched at it (all of them)!

 

I launched my first missile halfway between the maximum and the halfway distance marker as ive learned this normally ties in with the range the AIM-120 is launched at....

 

...Thanks for any input.

I assume we're talking about the AI. If so, then you're mishandling the fight. It should only take two. The first is a throwaway launched just before he can launch--your missile should have slightly more legs than his. If you launch first, he will go defensive. Then crank to the right or left to slow the closing distance. I prefer cranking right because, in the sim, we only have a guide on the left side of the HUD. That vertical range line happens to match your radar's gimbal limit. Place the steering dot just shy of the line.

Once he's maneuvering, depending on where he's going and what he's doing, take your kill shot. It's usually best to keep below him after launching so that your radar is in a look-up situation. I seem to get better results that way.

Also, once the range closes, using -27ERs is a waste, they're going to fast to turn with him.

Track attached. EDIT: Well, this is embarrassing. Just reviewed the track and realized that my 2nd ER didn't kill him after all. He was trying to terrain mask in flat terrain and discovered that hiding underground isn't quite the same thing...