Change Wording: "Set SPI Generator" instead of "Make SPI"

DCS A-10C Flight Manual, page 400, Chapter "Sensor Point of Interest (SPI)", middle of the page: "SPI sensor designators" then listing all sensors and end with the table for SOI and definable SPI. The table you referenced yourself in an earlier post.

 

 

 

 

No I asked where did you get the term "Set SPI Sensor Designator. "

...and on top of the very same page 400 (paragraph 2, last sentence), we have:

(...)"The current SPI generator is always indicated in the lower left corner of the HUD"(...)

Notice the words "SPI generator"!

 

 

 

 

I don't have too much of a problem with the term SPI Generator even though it's not used IRL or found anywhere but on ED forums.

 

 

But I am against changing the command Make SPI to Set SPI Generator.

 

 

 

It's has two different meanings and really is not something I would ever teach anyone.

Makes SPI from the current SOI.

Per the manual page 400 section "SPI Command Functions" it "sets Sensor as SPI", which allows the TGP, TAD, Maverick or HUD to define the SPI.

It does NOT make/create "a" Sensor Point of Interest (SPI) it selects the sensor that does.

No I asked where did you get the term "Set SPI Sensor Designator. "

I answered that already in a post above, but if you are to lazy to read: page 400 section "SPI Sensor Designators" caption roughly in the middle of the page...

I answered that already in a post above, but if you are to lazy to read: page 400 section "SPI Sensor Designators" caption roughly in the middle of the page...

 

 

 

 

no need to trade insults, but I think it is you that might be too lazy to show me where it says "SET SPI SENSOR DESIGNATOR" Its the exact term I asked for.

 

 

 

And actually I am the one that sent you to that page in the manual.

 

 

 

It does say SPI Sensor Designators:MAV, TGP, HUD and TAD

 

and "Set sensor as SPI",which I already said I am fine with.

Per the manual page 400 section "SPI Command Functions" it "sets Sensor as SPI", which allows the TGP, TAD, Maverick or HUD to define the SPI.

It does NOT make/create "a" Sensor Point of Interest (SPI) it selects the sensor that does.

 

 

 

 

That is not what it says.

 

 

 

under Mav:

"set sensor as SPI" function is selected, the line of sight point to the ground marks the SPI using TMS Forward Long.

 

 

TGP

 

when the TGP is SOI and the "set sensor as SPI" function is selected, the line of sight point at ground intersection marks the SPI with a TMS Forward Long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In every instance of creating a SPI it will always be a point in 3D space. Re-read the definition again at top of page 400.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Dagger71

That is not what it says.

 

 

 

under Mav:

"set sensor as SPI" function is selected, the line of sight point to the ground marks the SPI using TMS Forward Long.

 

 

TGP

 

when the TGP is SOI and the "set sensor as SPI" function is selected, the line of sight point at ground intersection marks the SPI with a TMS Forward Long.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In every instance of creating a SPI it will always be a point in 3D space. Re-read the definition again at top of page 400.

same paragraphs continued "As the Maverick seeker slews/ ...As the TGP crosshairs are slewed/, the SPI slews along with it. To un-assign the SPI (as in no longer constantly updating/generating the SPI coordinates)from the TGP, you may either use the "reset SPI to steerpoint" function or assign the SPI to another sensor."

The TMS Forward long DOES NOT MAKE a SPI, it selects the sensor that generates the SPI.

same paragraphs continued "As the Maverick seeker slews/ ...As the TGP crosshairs are slewed/, the SPI slews along with it. To un-assign the SPI (as in no longer constantly updating/generating the SPI coordinates)from the TGP, you may either use the "reset SPI to steerpoint" function or assign the SPI to another sensor."

The TMS Forward long DOES NOT MAKE a SPI, it selects the sensor that generates the SPI.

 

 

 

 

Hahahah! Now you are adding your own terms in the manual ???

 

 

 

But you are there!

 

 

 

re-read this slowly:

 

As the TGP crosshairs are slewed/, the SPI slews along with it.

the SPI slews along with it.

the SPI slews along with it.

the SPI slews along with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"A SPI is a 3D point in space that the systems use as a shared reference location to cue weapons, aim sensors and send over the datalink.

 

 

Once a sensor has been set as the Sensor Of Interest (SOI), the sensor may designate the SPI."

 

 

 

 

I have no problem calling the TGP SPI when it is the generator. But as I have posted several times. When you do TMS FORWARD LONG, it is a snapshot of the output of the sensor that gets saved and a 3d point is created.

 

As you slew the SOI, the Sensor point of interest moves with it and gets updated at a refresh interval.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Dagger71

Hahahah! Now you are adding your own terms in the manual ???

 

 

 

But you are there!

 

 

 

re-read this slowly:

 

As the TGP crosshairs are slewed/, the SPI slews along with it.

the SPI slews along with it.

the SPI slews along with it.

the SPI slews along with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"A SPI is a 3D point in space that the systems use as a shared reference location to cue weapons, aim sensors and send over the datalink.

 

 

Once a sensor has been set as the Sensor Of Interest (SOI), the sensor may designate the SPI."

 

 

 

 

I have no problem calling the TGP SPI when it is the generator. But as I have posted several times. When you do TMS FORWARD LONG, it is a snapshot of the output of the sensor that gets saved and a 3d point is created.

 

As you slew the SOI, the Sensor point of interest moves with it and gets updated at a refresh interval.

 

I don't add anything. The Manual has not been updated since 2013! Just go to either the http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com website and download it, or open it under Program files/ Eagle Dynamics/DCS World/Mods/aircraft/A-10C/doc/DCS A-10C Flight Manual EN.pdf which is the manual in question.

 

As for the snapshot theory, that would require you to update the "snapshot" whenever you move the sensor with TMS Forward long? Now, as the SPI coordinates are even sent via Datalink in real-time when moving the sensor, that theory of TMS fwd long "storing" a SPI does not work out. Basically, that misconception is the whole reason for this discussion.

TMS forward long selects the SPI sensor that designates the SPI coordinates, until set to another sensor or reset to steerpoint. Even with Steerpoint as source for the SPI the coordinates change with the waypoint, constantly. That is why "Make SPI" works for a trained pilot, as he had classroom training and an instructor hammering the concept of "Make the currently selected Sensor Of Interest (SOI) your source for the SensorPoint of Interest (SPI) unless reset or changed again" into his brain, whereas newcomers glancing on the Controls overview interpret "Make (a) SPI" as "Store the Sensor point coordinates as something as a markpoint for later use" and miss the part where the SPI is updated all the time, when the sensor is slewed.

Please tell me you aren't seriously asking this question after all the explanation I have gone through.

 

Apologies. I thought it was obvious that I was trying to point out that you, yourself, at various times called the SPI various things, and that I had hoped you would be able to clarify your understanding.

 

Anyway, we really are going in circles now. Not much of a surprise probably that I think shagrat summed it up very well in #59.

 

Dagger71, if you find a way to describe your understanding in different terms, I'm all ears. But you would really do me a favor if you refrained from explaining that the SPI is a point in 3D space. No one besides you seems to think there is any confusion about that concept whatsoever.

I don't add anything. The Manual has not been updated since 2013! Just go to either the www.digitalcombatsimulator.com website and download it, or open it under Program files/ Eagle Dynamics/DCS World/Mods/aircraft/A-10C/doc/DCS A-10C Flight Manual EN.pdf which is the manual in question.

 

As for the snapshot theory, that would require you to update the "snapshot" whenever you move the sensor with TMS Forward long? Now, as the SPI coordinates are even sent via Datalink in real-time when moving the sensor, that theory of TMS fwd long "storing" a SPI does not work out. Basically, that misconception is the whole reason for this discussion.

TMS forward long selects the SPI sensor that designates the SPI coordinates, until set to another sensor or reset to steerpoint. Even with Steerpoint as source for the SPI the coordinates change with the waypoint, constantly. That is why "Make SPI" works for a trained pilot, as he had classroom training and an instructor hammering the concept of "Make the currently selected Sensor Of Interest (SOI) your source for the SensorPoint of Interest (SPI) unless reset or changed again" into his brain, whereas newcomers glancing on the Controls overview interpret "Make (a) SPI" as "Store the Sensor point coordinates as something as a markpoint for later use" and miss the part where the SPI is updated all the time, when the sensor is slewed.

 

 

What do you mean by As for the "snapshot theory," It is a point in 3D space that continuously gets updated./ I've repeated that over and over.

 

 

 

That is how it works!!!

 

 

 

Why couldn't it NOT work over DL???? Of course it can. not sure how someone misses the point that the SPI is constantly updated when he can slew it.

 

 

 

It's all about the trainers... if they do a piss poor training, using unknown terms and filling the trainee's head with nonsense, then it will be difficult.

But you would really do me a favor if you refrained from explaining that the SPI is a point in 3D space. No one besides you seems to think there is any confusion about that concept whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

That is the EXACT definition as set out by the flight manual. Because you all seem to have a very hard time understanding this fact does not mean it is untrue.

 

 

 

 

The reason you are all confused and the use of irrelevant terms seems to make sense right now.

 

 

 

"A SPI is a 3D point in space that the systems use as a shared reference location to cue weapons, aim sensors and send over the datalink."

What do you mean by As for the "snapshot theory," It is a point in 3D space that continuously gets updated./ I've repeated that over and over.

 

 

 

That is how it works!!!

 

 

 

Why couldn't it NOT work over DL???? Of course it can. not sure how someone misses the point that the SPI is constantly updated when he can slew it.

 

 

 

It's all about the trainers... if they do a piss poor training, using unknown terms and filling the trainee's head with nonsense, then it will be difficult.

Because if TMS Fwd long stores the "snapshot" of that point, rather than selecting the sensor that constantly updates the point, it would keep the stored coordinates and you need to press TMS Fwd long again to update the SPI, which is obviously not necessary as the slew of a sensor or switching of the steerpoint updates the SPI in real-time.

It is not about what the TMS fwd long command does! We are agreed here. It selects the sensor as source for the coordinates, then updates these whenever the sensor is slewed or the steerpoint switched. It is about the misleading wording of "Make SPI", only, as Yurgon wrote in the first post.

You do not "create a SPI", because the SPI is always there! By default it is the steerpoint, until you select a sensor that is SOI and it starts feeding the system with constant, real-time updates to the coordinates...

That is why in the DCS A-10C Flight manual the term "Make SPI" is only ever mentioned in that control overview table and nowhere else.

 

And here we go again: It would be beneficial for newcomers, especially those who don't start by joining a Online Sim Squadron, to not have this misleading description as the first explanation of how the SOI and SPI works, while the detailed description is a couple hundred pages later and may never be read and understood.

No more, no less.

Because if TMS Fwd long stores the "snapshot" of that point, rather than selecting the sensor that constantly updates the point, it would keep the stored coordinates and you need to press TMS Fwd long again to update the SPI, which is obviously not necessary as the slew of a sensor or switching of the steerpoint updates the SPI in real-time.

 

 

 

 

No that not at all how I explained it. When you make SPI with any of the slewable sensors, it will get updated as you move it. I have said this many times and even you know this to be true.

 

 

 

TGP Mav HUD are all output devices that the CDU uses to generate ( which means create) the SPI. You all need to understand what happens. There is massive confusion when there shouldn't be.

That is the EXACT definition as set out by the flight manual. Because you all seem to have a very hard time understanding this fact does not mean it is untrue.

 

Okay, let me put it in words that you might understand.

 

The SPI is a point in 3D space.

 

Show me a single post in this thread where anyone says otherwise.

 

From the very beginning, you have been misreading the posts of other people. You have alleged that others are confused about things like the idea that the SPI is a point.

 

Stop telling us that we don't understand the system when you yourself fail, miserably, to understand pretty much anything that was written.

 

Stop telling us things that everyone already agrees on.

 

In the DCS A-10C, the SPI is a point, and there is one sensor/system that can update this point at a time. This sensor/system is shown in the lower left corner of the HUD. This sensor/system does not "create" the SPI, because the SPI already exists. This sensor keeps updating the SPI. It "generates" the SPI. This sensor, that generates the SPI, is the SPI Generator. TMS Forward Long does not create a SPI, it sets the sensor that generates the SPI. Therefore, TMS Forward Long sets the SPI Generator.

 

You may prefer a different way of looking at it, and that's perfectly fine with me.

 

But stop alleging that anyone besides yourself is confused. Go back to post #1 and read through this entire thread, all of it. Twice, beginning to end. If you have the time, 3 times would be even better.

 

Question every assumption that you have made in this entire discussion. What did you understand? What did someone write? Is there even the smallest chance that your understanding is different from what has been written?

 

Only after you've gained clarity should you reply again.

 

Do you understand what I'm saying? Is there any way I can make this any clearer? Do not tell me I'm confused when you do not understand what it is that I have actually written.

 

If you need me to explain or clarify anything, don't be ashamed to ask instead of telling.

This sensor/system does not "create" the SPI, because the SPI already exists. This sensor keeps updating the SPI. It "generates" the SPI.

 

 

 

 

Do you know the definition of the word generate????? It is create/make/produce!!!

 

 

 

So I don't have a problem with the wording "generate SPI" because in plain english, it means "create SPI". I'm glad you finally understand what I was saying!!!

 

 

But to say TMS fwd long is "set spi generator" leads to much confusion.

 

 

 

I'll accept it as set spi, generate SPI, make SPI

 

 

 

I won't respond to the rest of your condescending remarks, because the US Airforce manual is very clear on what is a SPI therefore I don't need you to continue to explain how your definition supersedes the US Airforce documentation on the subject.

 

 

 

you may contact the US DoD to bring up your grievances to them. In the meantime, I'll stick with reality

Edited September 11, 2019 by Dagger71

There is an old hoggit post written by an actual A10C pilot.

 

 

 

 

 

He mentions suite 8 has a lot of upgrades. Including Last Mark SPI:

 

 

"Same as making default SPI (STPT SPI) or TGP LOS SPI. Except it is simply your last mark taken. No copy LSK required."

There is an old hoggit post written by an actual A10C pilot.

 

 

 

 

 

He mentions suite 8 has a lot of upgrades. Including Last Mark SPI:

 

 

"Same as making default SPI (STPT SPI) or TGP LOS SPI. Except it is simply your last mark taken. No copy LSK required."

 

Please, pretty please understand that nobody is disputing that A-10C pilots use "Make SPI" in the sense of "making the SOI source for the SPI coordinates".

The important job of a Game manual is to help people play the game and understand how to play it. The use of "Make SPI" as basically the first mentioning in the manual is confusing, as newcomers have usually not embraced the SOI and SPI concept, yet.

If someone wants to use the US Air Force flight manual and has legal access to it, he is free to use it.

For the DCS A-10C Flight manual we will continue to optimize it, to help people to learn the ropes.

I put this up internally, let's see, if we can make the manual more consistent and helpful.

Please, pretty please understand that nobody is disputing that A-10C pilots use "Make SPI" in the sense of "making the SOI source for the SPI coordinates".

The important job of a Game manual is to help people play the game and understand how to play it. The use of "Make SPI" as basically the first mentioning in the manual is confusing, as newcomers have usually not embraced the SOI and SPI concept, yet.

If someone wants to use the US Air Force flight manual and has legal access to it, he is free to use it.

For the DCS A-10C Flight manual we will continue to optimize it, to help people to learn the ropes.

I put this up internally, let's see, if we can make the manual more consistent and helpful.

 

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=69610

 

 

 

 

Here's a link to the HOTAS layout I use that uses the term Set SPI. Use this one as its the best single page layout for the WH hotas (I'm still using the same one from 6 years ago)

 

 

 

I don't have anything else to say about this other than changing it to "Set SPI Generator" is the most confusing term we can possibly use.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Dagger71

I think the proper usage is "make something SPI", while "something" being an object/target /coordinate/point. i.e. make hooked object SPI, make last markpoint SPI or make HDC SPI. (These three are from the DoD manual).

 

So for me I'm good with make TGP track-point SPI, make MAV target SPI, make TDC SPI, etc.

But I personally won't call it make TGP SPI, make MAV SPI or make HUD SPI to avoid confusion.

 

PS: I also think you can use 'slew/update SPI' from the F16 MLU manual.

Edited September 12, 2019 by LJQCN101
typo

Shagrat is right. The SPI is constantly updating, even if the SPI generating sensor is not SOI.

Quigon I thought you knew better

Knew better? How? Is the SPI not constantly getting updated or what?

You said it yourself that it is constantly getting updated here:

 

What do you mean by As for the "snapshot theory," It is a point in 3D space that continuously gets updated./ I've repeated that over and over.

 

That is how it works!!!

:huh:

I think the proper usage is "make something SPI", while "something" being an object/target /coordinate/point. i.e. make hooked object SPI, make last markpoint SPI or make HDC SPI. (These three are from the DoD manual).

 

So for me I'm good with make TGP track-point SPI, make MAV target SPI, make TDC SPI, etc.

But I personally won't call it make TGP SPI, make MAV SPI or make HUD SPI to avoid confusion.

 

PS: I also think you can use 'slew/update SPI' from the F16 MLU manual.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the moment of sanity!!!

I think the proper usage is "make something SPI", while "something" being an object/target /coordinate/point. i.e. make hooked object SPI, make last markpoint SPI or make HDC SPI. (These three are from the DoD manual).

 

So for me I'm good with make TGP track-point SPI, make MAV target SPI, make TDC SPI, etc.

But I personally won't call it make TGP SPI, make MAV SPI or make HUD SPI to avoid confusion.

 

PS: I also think you can use 'slew/update SPI' from the F16 MLU manual.

"Make SOI SPI" would work also. Just "Make SPI" without the "something" is misleading...

I would also like to point out that with "Last Mark SPI" etc. we talk about the manual and real proceedings of a suite 8, where as we have a suite 3 simulated.

The guy explicitly explained that a lot of the stuff including HOTAS changed in the decade in-between...

"Make SOI SPI" would work also. Just "Make SPI" without the "something" is misleading...

But make SOI SPI would be wrong, as the SOI itself is not the SPI. The SOI (TGP, TAD, ...) is just providing the SPI (a 3D position).

 

What LJQCN101 said is, that you could say "Make a 3D position (a target/object/coordinate/point) SPI", which would be correct.