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Flight Model Again V2


Focha

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Bull$hit no helicopter can do it, VRS means the downward thrust no longer supports the aircraft, gravity has won.

 

YMMV. :thumbup:

 

 

Back to school for you:

 

 

Power settling is an unstable condition. If allowed to continue, the sink rate will reach sufficient proportions for the flow to be entirely up through the rotor system. If continued, the rate of descent will reach extremely high rates. Recovery may be initiated during the early stages of power settling by putting on a large amount of excess power. During the early stages of power settling, the large amount of excess power may be sufficient to overcome the upflow near the center of the rotor. If the sink rate reaches a higher rate, power will not be available to break this upflow, and thus alter the vortex ring state of flow. Normal tendency is for pilots to recover from a descent by application of collective pitch and power. If insufficient power is available for recovery, this action may aggravate power settling resulting in more turbulence and a higher rate of descent. Recovery can be accomplished by lowering collective pitch and increasing forward speed. Both of these methods of recovery require altitude to be successful.

 

 

 

 

 

Would I ever do it irl? No, is it possible, yes.

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two more flights

 

 

Things to follow (not planned at the moment of flight)

 

1. Controls are set without curves

2. Ap and trim off

3. trim still seems present aircraft flying straight easy

4. complete roll nothing but full cyclic

5. Complete rolls left and right low level

6. roll with climb and engine finally dies... :)

 

 

Things to follow (not planned at the moment of flight):

 

1 Controls are set without curves

2 AP and Trim off

3 No problem doing hard maneuvers just hard corrections are necessary to stop the wobbling

4. straight flight with no inputs

5. hard rolls left right

6 complete rolls low level tight turns and...

7. engine dies and I pull another complete roll before crash landing

 

I don't know... I just find it incredible and corroborated with what others can do...

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Back to school for you:

 

 

Power settling is an unstable condition. If allowed to continue, the sink rate will reach sufficient proportions for the flow to be entirely up through the rotor system. If continued, the rate of descent will reach extremely high rates. Recovery may be initiated during the early stages of power settling by putting on a large amount of excess power. During the early stages of power settling, the large amount of excess power may be sufficient to overcome the upflow near the center of the rotor. If the sink rate reaches a higher rate, power will not be available to break this upflow, and thus alter the vortex ring state of flow. Normal tendency is for pilots to recover from a descent by application of collective pitch and power. If insufficient power is available for recovery, this action may aggravate power settling resulting in more turbulence and a higher rate of descent. Recovery can be accomplished by lowering collective pitch and increasing forward speed. Both of these methods of recovery require altitude to be successful.

 

 

 

 

 

Would I ever do it irl? No, is it possible, yes.

 

Yes I think we are saying the same thing however remaining on the same path and applying more power is not the answer it will usually just make the situation worse.

 

This is what I mean by stepping out of it sideways, the aim is to get out of the vortex condition by moving into undisturbed air to regain lift.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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That's true, but so should a boot full of pedal and it doesn't. (Gyro/AP off of course). Violent inputs don't upset the balance and they should.

 

I am not a pilot but even small inputs have an effect.

 

Then jump in your R22 and do the same and see what happens. Throw the stick out the window first, to make sure you don't cheat. :helpsmilie:

..

 

No I have only ghosted the controls on autos, all the same I'll keep the stick thanks. :D

 

Is a stable hover at 5000ft in the flight envelope for a Robi??

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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...

 

AP all On and curves to 30. If you drop AP etc and set curves to 0 and train a bit you can do amazing things. Also the helicopter will surprise you doing all sorts of crazy maneuvers on its own.

 

...

 

My main problem is that I don't want to use certain stick with certain settings to confine myself within a realistic FM. I want the helicopter not to be able to do crazy stuff on its own.

 

What actual crazy stuff?

 

 

You need to keep an open mind. :)

 

 

And that folks is why I like the Gazelle. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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What actual crazy stuff?

 

 

 

The low altitude rolls are not looking like how it would be possible to manouver the real Gazelle. Not even if dumping the collective to the floor during the roll( which you normally do to make the roll look anything like a roll). To not loose altitude on a roll you need to do that, and also push the cyclic forward to get the main rotor to produce some minus G.

 

 

Both type of manouver can be seen in different displays with the Bo105 on the 'tube.

 

 

Collective dump only, the height loss in a roll is easy to notice.It may be encountered by a good amount of positive climb before the roll but the helo will loose altitude during the roll.

 

 

Collective dump and nose pushover to -G can make the roll quite straight. IRL I'd say that would take some practise to perform pretty.

 

 

I had the rotor head pointing down a few times with the BO105. :megalol:


Edited by Gunnars Driver
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Is the jack stall( servo transparency) modelled in the Gazelle?

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[DCS Mirage 2K; Huey; Spitfire Mk IX, AJS 37, F-14, F-18, FC3, A-10 Warthog II and a few more ]

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A forum is not useful for long talks, just saying. If you want to know more, go to discod. If you don't want to go there, it's not a obligation.

What do I need to know except for the fact that the current FM is faulty and borchi2b is not going into anything in depth but be a smartass with his replies?

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What actual crazy stuff?

 

 

You need to keep an open mind. :)

 

 

That is not a gazelle and not even a true Bo105 cauze is stripped down to barebone.

And I mean crazy stuff like turning off in mid flight AP and trim and nothing at all happening, rolls with engine dying, rolls without any need of coordination, strange twitching in simple maneuvers but rock stable in complicated violent ones... etc.

 

I am keeping an open mind and hope they will improve the FM but I tend to keep hopes down especially because they are in denial mostly and that is just the first hopeless stage of improvement.

 

I am interested too on how is the FM affected by the FPS of the machine that simulates it. Is it still ok?

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That is not a gazelle and not even a true Bo105 cauze is stripped down to barebone.

And I mean crazy stuff like turning off in mid flight AP and trim and nothing at all happening, rolls with engine dying, rolls without any need of coordination, strange twitching in simple maneuvers but rock stable in complicated violent ones... etc.

 

Okay you got me there here's a Gazelle.

 

 

I may have broken a few Gazelles practicing rolls and loops,.. :music_whistling:

 

I am keeping an open mind and hope they will improve the FM but I tend to keep hopes down especially because they are in denial mostly and that is just the first hopeless stage of improvement.

 

I am pretty optimistic PC have come a long way since the Gazelle was first released they are a small group however the last improvements have IMO improved the FM a lot so I tend to think glass half full. PC got some pretty nasty treatment in the past so I guess that's why they are somewhat defensive, hopefully this discussion wont degenerate like that. I'd rather hope moving forward things will get better.

 

I am interested too on how is the FM affected by the FPS of the machine that simulates it. Is it still ok?

 

Just as an observation there really isn't much difference between 45FPS and 90FPS in VR although if I push the CPU/GPU hard with higher settings DCS is not as responsive and that reflects on all modules. But 90FPS (with CPU and GPU headroom) makes the experience buttery smooth.

 

What do you use for cyclic input? It's just that I got by with a joy stick for Huey and Mi8 but the Gazelle was horrid with a joystick mostly to do with the mechanical centering action and built in "dead zone" (in the joystick electronics) in the roll and pitch axis and with the Gazelle that masked very fine control. Yes I have questioned the centric nature of the Gazelle cyclic.

 

I think a lot of users find the Gazelle bad not so much from a FM perspective but from a the way a joystick makes the Gazelle twitchy in response IMO.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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The low altitude rolls are not looking like how it would be possible to manouver the real Gazelle. Not even if dumping the collective to the floor during the roll( which you normally do to make the roll look anything like a roll). To not loose altitude on a roll you need to do that, and also push the cyclic forward to get the main rotor to produce some minus G.

 

 

Both type of manouver can be seen in different displays with the Bo105 on the 'tube.

 

 

Collective dump only, the height loss in a roll is easy to notice.It may be encountered by a good amount of positive climb before the roll but the helo will loose altitude during the roll.

 

 

Collective dump and nose pushover to -G can make the roll quite straight. IRL I'd say that would take some practise to perform pretty.

 

 

I had the rotor head pointing down a few times with the BO105. :megalol:

 

 

Great stuff to know thanks, it's way to easy to exceed VNE on the way down exiting a loop, in real life I'll just follow the IP's directions but in DCS meh!

 

I may have broke a couple of Gazelles trying. :megalol:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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  • 3 weeks later...

All I am saying is that when I drop collective and drop 500 feet straight down and then 10 feet from the ground pull collective and gently land then something isn't right. It makes me question everything else about the flight model at that point. It feels more like a ship from battlestar galactica to me than a helicopter if it can do that.

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To anyone who have doubts about flight dynamics of the gazelle, they are answering in their Discord! https://discord.gg/7pMhx6t

 

I went there and it is not so much about the Gazelle but about the flight dynamics/principles of flight general.

 

Not even close to the content that it was discussed here.

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  • 2 weeks later...

FLIGHT TEST OF THE AEROSPATIALE SA-342 HCLICOPTER

 

Maybe this document can help explain the flight characteristics?

 

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a016921.pdf

**** „Es gibt alte Piloten und es gibt kühne Piloten, aber es gibt keine alten, kühnen Piloten.“ ****

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Maybe this document can help explain the flight characteristics?

 

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a016921.pdf

 

Great find! Thanks!

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Same document as here. interesting read though none the less.

 

Another thread,..

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Same document as here. interesting read though none the less.

 

Another thread,..

 

Thanks, I'm pretty much the last guy thats gonna wade into heli FM debate, fixed wing FM's are bad enough. But I like learning.

 

I also think the comment about where the stick is in the real pit is interesting, but also problematic for converting that data to where "Sim" joysticks should be.


Edited by Harlikwin

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

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