AIM-9M/X -> M2k

Evening gents. Been setting up practice scenarios with against different fighters and have noticed some odd behavior with the sidewinder family against the Mirage.

In a head on engagement, I am able to get tone on afterburning SU-27s at 15nm with the 9M and 22nm with 9X. By comparison, I can not get tone on a head on Mirage until 3.5/4nm with the 9M/X. Additionally either version is spoofed by flares very easily.

Including a track here. In this engagement with the 3rd Mirage you can see the 9X acquire tone for the briefest moment at 8nm, before giving up and going back into search. In testing for comparison, I've gotten tone on nonafterburning f-86/mig-15 at similar and farther ranges than I can an afterburning Mirage.

Does the Mirage come equipped with some form of DIRCM I am not aware of? :helpsmilie:

https://mega.nz/#!x65izaxS!Hg3mchCKJMxKNE23pna3v9HGobG95asYqy3G8AGDDgU

I think there's some kinda heat attribute at play - I noticed it up against the L-39, where head-on you can't get tone with either missile till about 1.5nm, but switch it out for the Mig-25 or something and you can get tone at 15nm. Right now it seems like the M and X are using the same seeker head, I'dve thought the X would be able to lock a small head-on target at better ranges than the M - is that not the case in real life?

In my observation, M2K heat signature is low compared to F-15 or Su-27. Probably just little bit higher than A-10C. I don't know if its accurate or not but it gives huge advantage for M2K in certain combat scenario.

There absolutely is a heat attribute in play for different airframes. What I'm asking is if there is a reason the Mirage has such a small one that I am not aware of, or if there is an issue with its model? Target in afterburn should be easier to spot than non.

Here is a track of a simple setup head on in air start versus a M2k and a Mig-15. Note the 9M gets tone on both targets at the same range, and the first missile gets baffled at the first sight of flares.

Even after the 9X gets adjusted in the internal build, if there is still an issue with the Mirage heat image we will still have an issue.

sidewinder2.trk

I'm pretty sure it is bugged, on AB your heat signature should be huge no matter what airplane, I suggest you to report it in the mirage bug section as you already prepared a track file, thanks.

It is the same for 9M too so it is the mirage(we tested it recently).

Done: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3598568#post3598568

I have to wonder whether it is on ED's or RAZBAM's side though.

Naturally the mirage forumites see no issues. :megalol:

It doesn't look to me like they see "no issues" at all... they just seem to have asked for better evidence.

"Aircraft in afterburner has same heat signature as without." Includes demonstration.

The proof is evident without the comparison to other fighters, except to say that REHEAT generates added heat is normal. It does not in this module.

"Sure its not intended?" "Try looking somewhere else?"

Thats called, "failing to see an issue." Deflecting away is not the same as asking for proof.

subsequent to you trying against the dash 5: "This seems much more in-line with others. Maybe RAZBAM has to look into their M2K."

We're not as malignant as you try to make us appear. If there is a bug with the Mirage, hope Razbam will fix it, even if 11Nm is way beyond the Rmax of your fox 2.

As a bug driver, you'll still get slaughtered WVR by the Mirage anyway (joke)

No aircraft should have the same heat signature at cruise and full burn. That was demonstrated off the bat, and the notion that was not accurate is what met resistance. There is a substantial difference in narrowing the issue down in some way, to saying its a problem with the other air frames being locked too far away.

even if 11Nm is way beyond the Rmax of your fox 2.

... think so eh? :music_whistling:

i don't think so, i'm sure.

There's Rmax range on paper, and effective Rmax range (when the missile still has some energy to manoeuver and actually be a threat)

while you may obtain an IR signature at 11Nm, hitting a moving target at this distance with a fox 2 in DCS is a different story.

Anyway, again if there is an issue with the M2KC, i hope Razbam fixes it, so F18 drivers can stop raising the bug flag everytime they get their a$$ walloped in short range by a better dogfighter lmao !

Defensively maneuvering target, yes. Far outside. But this is called RNE. Straight and level is Rmax.

Check the last two tracks posted on the bug thread. Killing the poor SU-27 with 18nm shots. Head on against a defensive target, RNE, would be about 5-6nm. This is actually important here. Because the Mirage is immune down to 3.5nm, while others can be engaged out to RNE or RMAX.

Also, despite the info and repeated tracks, "case closed". Like I said, forumites on that side aren't trying to find or fix an issue. :thumbup:

it's not immune at all... other members on f18 get a heat lock on the Mirage past 6 Nm.... so it's their words vs yours.

(can't see for myself, not interested in the F18, too busy flying circles around them) ;)

hope the truth comes out of this, but to be honest, if this bug cannot be reproduced by other members, you'll have a hard time forcing this change i think

Following up. Actually found 2 bugs here. One is the Mirage AI flight model is over performing, and can apparently travel at high speed without afterburner. Second is the IR signature is bugged anyway. Tone at 6nm, where it should match Mirage 2000-5, which uses same engine and airframe with different avionics, at 11-12nm.

Okay, define high speed, you can go fast with AB, over 1000km/h, for it's high speed. AI is over performing in everything, nothing new. IR signature, I can get a tone on Su-27 which is on the ground starting up, not even idle, just spooling up.

AI Mirage clocks in 770-800 knots true with no burner. Super cruise for sure. IR signature on the Mirage is the issue. The 2000C is only giving tone at 6nm from a head on aspect. Its anomalously low range.

F-16 11nm

F-18 12nm

F-15 14nm

Su-27 15-18nm

Mirage 2000-5 11nm

Mirage 2000C 6nm

The signature is nearly half what it should be. And signature strength also plays into countermeasures, flares. Stronger the signal the less often the missile will get spoofed. Lower, the more often flares will defeat it.

The 2000-5 and 2000C should have the same profile. They do not. Mirage forums say, "and thats fine."