I'm incapable of detecting and countermeasure incoming missiles

I only play in VR and never see the missiles coming. So, never actually use counter measure, as I do not know when to do so. I'm currently mainly using F.18, but this is also applicable for the Mirage 2000, Viggen and the A-10. These are my go to modules.

AI always knows when a missile is coming and use counter measures. Good for them.

I end up never fighting AI that have anti air missiles, which is a bit boring in the end.

How do you know when to use counter measure?

Is this a VR issue, that missiles are not visible enough?

Or am I just not good enough?

We fly these sims for the fun of flying etc. IRL these are very expensive weapon platforms and the pilots should know how to use it to the best of it's capabilities. This means not only learning your aircraft and it's weapons well, but also your adversaries aircraft and weapons.

I also use Tacview to look at what happen and why I was killed a lot.:helpsmilie:

Lots of practice, watch video's and read.:)

This is a video showing in sim and the tactics of notching, with tacview on the right.

Great read here --> DCS F-15C Combat Guide for Beginners

Download this for the Su-27

We fly these sims for the fun of flying etc. IRL these are very expensive weapon platforms and the pilots should know how to use it to the best of it's capabilities. This means not only learning your aircraft and it's weapons well, but also your adversaries aircraft and weapons.

 

I also use Tacview to look at what happen and why I was killed a lot.:helpsmilie:

 

Lots of practice, watch video's and read.:)

 

This is a video showing in sim and the tactics of notching, with tacview on the right.

 

 

 

Great read here --> DCS F-15C Combat Guide for Beginners

 

 

Download this for the Su-27

Thanks David OC, will have a look and see if it helps. I also use tacview. But basically it only tells me that there was a missile, although I did not see it.

I only play in VR and never see the missiles coming. So, never actually use counter measure, as I do not know when to do so. I'm currently mainly using F.18, but this is also applicable for the Mirage 2000, Viggen and the A-10. These are my go to modules.

 

AI always knows when a missile is coming and use counter measures. Good for them.

I end up never fighting AI that have anti air missiles, which is a bit boring in the end.

 

How do you know when to use counter measure?

Is this a VR issue, that missiles are not visible enough?

Or am I just not good enough?

Hi Kunterbunt. I have the same problem, I use an aculus rift and I can’t see any incoming missile from the ground, so si leave the counter measure system in auto and start to do some maneuvers trying to avoid the impact. There is a mission in the A10 where you enter in a zone called “the gaunlet”, I saw some video from some guys how don’t use VR and they can locate the missile but I that we have two problems here:

1) VR is to immersive that at low altitud I can’t look to the side, I’m only trying to avoid hit the top of the tree and not have heart atack.

2) VR have not the best resolution to detect those sutil smoke behind a SAM.

Arthur from Argentina.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk Pro

My advise would be to build a mission with just a few enemy radar units on it, no launchers. Keep the widely dispersed so you know where they are. Practice flying towards them at normal altitude and see how your radar warning systems work.

Now try sneaking up on them.

Now add the launcher and see if you can evade the missile at long range.

The SA-6 is a pretty good one to start on, it has a high minimum altitude, meaning it cannot launch on you below a certain altitude. It has a huge visible cloud when it launches that can be seen for miles. It is a good starter opponent.

>Спасибо за полезную информацию в данной теме....

Sorry, but I cannot read this language. I assume Russian?

>Спасибо за полезную информацию в данной теме....

 

Sorry, but I cannot read this language. I assume Russian?

Google translator said: "Thanks for the helpful information in this thread ...." :smartass:

look for the giant white smoke trail stretching across the sky

I use vr too. It's much harder too spot, but there are pros and cons. But keep spotting, it gets better overtime.

Is this a VR issue, that missiles are not visible enough?

"are they visible enough" - compared to reality ?

An AIM-120 is 18cm in diameter.

"In humans, 20/20 vision is the ability to resolve a spatial pattern separated by a visual angle of one minute of arc" - so 1/60th of a degree.

That means that a person with 20/20 vision isn't capable of resolving the body of an AIM-120 as an object at more than 620m.

If it's glinting, you might see it further away, but, the makers don't want it to glint, so how far away do you think you should be able to see it at ?

I can't see where you specify what type of missile - A2A or SAM.

If it's a SAM, if you look at where the source is on the RWR, then look in that direction, you should see the launch as a big plume of smoke. Now you know where it's coming from, and how far away it started from, so roughly how long you have to do something about it.

Once it's on its way and is pointing at you, lets say it's an S-300 launch - it's 30km away and presenting a cross sectional diameter about the size of a pizza dish - 40cm - 50cm or so, and at peak speed it's closing at maybe a couple of kilometres a second.

So keep tabs on the plume, and they work from there, cause once the plume's gone - if in the real world you can find a pizza dish against a blank sky at 4km, you've got better eyes than me.

If you listen to youtube clips of pilots evading SAMs, they usually start to get interesting with the RWR & and someone identifying the launch - that's when they start to react, not once they get an eye on the missile.

Best bet - get out of its engagement zone, get out of view of its radar, or drain the missile of energy while it's coasting so that when it gets close enough for you to see it you either already have, or can, out manoeuvre it (while deploying CMs).

A2A missiles - an AIM-120 is 7 inches in diameter. If it's not leaving a trail, you're not manoeuvring, and it's just flying at you, like I said - how far away do you expect to see it ?

If it's leaving a trail, you're making it manoeuvre, or it's closing at an angle, you'll have more to see, but in real life, it's 2m long, but it's still only 18cm across, deliberately painted a colour to make it hard to see, and closing at somewhere between 300 m/s and 2000 m/s.

To survive arrange it so that either - it has energy, but you're not where it is when it arrives where it thinks you are (because you broke the guiding aircraft's lock, or it chased your CM), or it finds you, but it has no energy because you bled it off, and you try to CM it and out manoeuvre it while it's slow.

Arranging for those things to be true all happens before you actually see the missile...

Might be a stupid question, but have you turned your RWR on? The power button is below the center screen. That will give you warnings of when you've been locked and launched at with radar missiles, so you can start chaffing and evading. IR missiles you have to watch for, but they're normally fired a lot closer so you can normally see the missile trail.

I only play in VR and never see the missiles coming. So, never actually use counter measure, as I do not know when to do so. I'm currently mainly using F.18, but this is also applicable for the Mirage 2000, Viggen and the A-10. These are my go to modules.

 

AI always knows when a missile is coming and use counter measures. Good for them.

I end up never fighting AI that have anti air missiles, which is a bit boring in the end.

 

How do you know when to use counter measure?

Is this a VR issue, that missiles are not visible enough?

Or am I just not good enough?

Hi Kunterbunt,

I will give you some recommendations based on what you have told us, hope they are helpful:

1-The first thing before you are able to regularly spot missiles is knowing where to look. This is a combination of SA, system and practice. Talking about system the RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) is your best Allie, it will tell you the bearing to any enemy equipment either at land, sea or air as long as they're equipped with a Radar. Learn to distinguish when a threat is locking you up or is a higher priority, and of course learn to distinguish when a threat has launched a missile on you. This won't solve the whole equation since you still have IR missile and IR SAM that don't even need to use their radar to shoot you, this complicates things but that is where your Situational Awareness come into play: If the briefing tells you there is a IR SAM threat on WP3, make sure that you only overfly that zone at very low altitude or at very very high altitude (IR SAMs have a limited operational ceiling of around 5000-8000 mtrs).

2-VR and missile spotting: is definitely possible, I will say more, you can perfectly see missiles coming at you at higher distance that what i think you would do in RL (Of course this is a personal assumption). Please check this thread that myself created when i received my oculus rift:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=213974

The key for me has been lowering any kind of post processing (AF and MSAA), once i did that i started to clearly see fighter and missiles from miles away. The downside is clear, the cockpit and overall eye candy goes down a bit but I can totally live with it and you get used to it.

3- About SA: try not to fight surrounded, always keep enemies on one side, so you know the general direction from where to expect threats, also you will have a safe place to run if things get ugly :).

4-Preemtive countermeasures: you dont use chaff and flares only when you see a missile, but also wwhen you know you are in the WEZ of one. So for example, preemtive flares before the merge with an enemy fighter hot on you, flares when entering an attack run into a SAM defended zone. Of course chaff when your RWR is screaming you a missile launch XD, etc...

5-There are some good DCS youtube channels with people regularly flying on highly skilled servers, you could have a look and watch some videos so you start getting the grasp of it. I leave you some recommendations here:

Jabbers: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvXXUrGCF3wV3bbZ6pFQ00g/videos

104th spade: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIQqIdXzJETVr8MUhpr6wMQ

Spudknocker: https://www.youtube.com/user/Spudknocker1/videos

I hope these guidelines can serve you.

I only play in VR and never see the missiles coming. So, never actually use counter measure, as I do not know when to do so. I'm currently mainly using F.18, but this is also applicable for the Mirage 2000, Viggen and the A-10. These are my go to modules.

 

AI always knows when a missile is coming and use counter measures. Good for them.

I end up never fighting AI that have anti air missiles, which is a bit boring in the end.

 

How do you know when to use counter measure?

Is this a VR issue, that missiles are not visible enough?

Or am I just not good enough?

What pixel density are you using? I used to have difficulties spotting aircraft and missiles, but once I lowered pixel density from 1.5 to 1.0 it was much easier. Sure your instruments in the cockpit won't be as sharp, but they are still readable.

What pixel density are you using? I used to have difficulties spotting aircraft and missiles, but once I lowered pixel density from 1.5 to 1.0 it was much easier. Sure your instruments in the cockpit won't be as sharp, but they are still readable.

Exactly this. Unfortunately since the very last OB update i almost cant see missiles anymore. It like they-ve decrease spotting range. Not sure if its just me though.

LOL this is the exact reason I stopped using my VR.. and now have gone back to the Screen...

Wow, thanks everybody. Lots of good tips.

I meant A2A and now I use RWR to detect radar guided missiles.

I will stick to enemies that use those missiles for now, so that I can get a warning.

I use PD of 1.3, so can try to reduce to 1.0 and see if I can detect missiles.

But, will not be able to do that before weekend.

I will also try to use countermeasures not only when I see a missile.

Currently trying to get AWACS to work (another thread), so that I can see where the enemy is and prepare accordingly.

I will keep you all updated with my progress using all these tips. One thing already did change: I now fight AI that use missiles. Much more satisfying to kill them now.

Thanks!

tbh, I'm thinking that, by the time the missile has been seen it is already too late in many situations.

I think that, if you are aware that you have hostiles near, it is best to assume that you have been launched at and drop regular chaff and flares preemptively.

The normal procedure for threat avoidance is to try and spot the missile in its boost phase. This is quite visible in DCS. Put the threat on your 3:00 or 9:00 If the plume is stationary on your canopy, it’s tracking you.

Thanks all, die to the tips in this thread I finally was able to dodge one missile. It felt really good.

LOL this is the exact reason I stopped using my VR.. and now have gone back to the Screen...

?!?!?! :shocking:

I'd rather get killed another thousand times than going back to 2D from VR! :pilotfly:

:thumbup:

?!?!?! :shocking:

 

I'd rather get killed another thousand times than going back to 2D from VR! :pilotfly:

No RWR or MWS/No tally -This is a constant state from IR short range. You defend with altitude and observation and premeditated flares in high risk areas. It's your basic missile defense ... don't be in the wrong place. Perfectly feasible for the next second to receive a lethal Fox2 or IR SAM from anywhere without warning. Without an RWR, also possible to receive the same from any radar missile.

Fox2 - actions are immediate, flare excessively and break (the aircraft). Instructions won't help beyond a break turn unless you know it was launched tail on and beyond 2 miles. If you weren't executing your best BFM at the time or losing, then pray it doesn't hit the cockpit.

Fox1 - If purely defensive and not intending to engage, 3-9 line on the supporting platform and descend to notch altitude. Reverse and run after assessment. Monitor the spike throughout.

If offensive and supporting a shot, you should already be cranking and your assessment of relative cranks, altitudes, speeds, launch times and weapons will be calculated in the grey matter as to whether you think the risk is too high. At this time, you are defending the launch platform's radar, because that's what the missile needs to hit you, not the missile itself which is guiding from the platform. Any movement you make whilst his missile is in flight will lengthen his Fpole, try to make movements in every axis, barrel rolls are effective.

Fox3 - You begin with a Fox1 defence, but have to watch the RWR like a hawk for the pitbull. Once you see that "M", you have 10-15 seconds. It must be on your 3-9 and assuming you supported the same shot in return the ranges and altitudes really matter. A 22nm shot you were likely to defeat with any reasonable defending action. A 17nm shot you are going to need to turn away from. Anything lower and you need to put some heavy work in and act in desperation. I've not done much R77 work, but the Phoenix's are lethal at seemingly any range right now. You can use a "rate explosion" on these using RWR only and break into it with timing, but honestly, that's not begineer stuff and carries enormous risk, especially the closer and more energy the missile has.

Radar SAM's - These are pretty simple to defeat with an RWR, but only because DCS fires too far out giving you plenty of time. If at medium and above altitudes you defend on your 3-9 line and reverse at range. Nothing else is required, just tally the launch or the RWR CW alert, put it on 3 or 9, chaff, assess, reverse to the other side and at range, this is enough. Just don't be sloppy about defending or try to be gungho on some Maverick delivery. If you are observant the only thing you will see is it's detonation off your wing.

Low level radar SAM's - break LOS behind cover or descend to silly low altitude. Most of the time DCS gives up at 40ft altitude even head on. Some of the more advanced and newer Radar missiles can be pretty nasty though. But you can still pop up on a ToR, it's a matter of speed and skill and practice.

RoT: Flying towards missiles is bad, defeat the launching platform on Semi Actives, keep moving and changing trajectory and make the missile tire sooner. Watch Tacview and know the enemy equipment well.

Visual -

Final note, there was a discussion on placing a missile on the 3-9 and doing a last minute break turn into it with timing. I'm not a big fan of this, I think it applies to an older time of large missiles like SA-2/3 which didn't have (as) great max G performance. It will need a visual tally also, which isn't something to rely on after the burn time is up. You can see this work by watching a fighter pilot tip called the line of sight "Rate Explosion"...

The 'tracking rate' across the canopy is how you measure the incoming missiles danger to you. If the missile is stationary in the canopy, it has absolute lead on you and enough energy for a decent collision. You are in danger. Put it on the 3-9 and observe. Does it move behind you slightly? Adjust it back to the beam with minor turns into it. There will come a point where these little adjustments need more and more effort, and the missile moves faster across the canopy. This is where you know you are getting close. With timing, excessive CM's and anticipating the rate explosion well, you will roll to put the missile on your lift vector and execute a maximum performance break at the same time as the missile is doing the same. If you are winning, the missile drifts aft towards the back of the canopy. Too soon, it hits your face. If it had more energy from closer range, and more available G's because it's a newer better missile, then this was a bad choice.

I don't recommend it because from a risk perspective, it's easier to turn and run from SAM's. Myself I only use visual at a distance and prefer to run and know my ranges.

I can never really see the missiles, I can see the plum of smoke when they launch. I use the RWR and I have the options set so that it says "Incoming missile 12 o'clock high" etc. So I know what direction it's coming from and I can usually see aircraft on my RWR. I check the radar to see the distance from the aircraft and once I know the distance, I have a general idea of how long it will take for the missile to get to me. I've been shot down a million times so I got used to it. If it's coming from 12 o'clock I know I'm heading right for it, since I know the distance now I just notch the plane on it's side and slowly bank out so the missile bleeds off energy, then I do a hard break while dropping counter measures, split s from there and ease the other direction so I don't lose too much energy. If you do it just right you can get a lock on them and still have the lock when you've dodged the missile. If I do see the missile itself it's usually as it hits my cockpit, surprisingly you can usually tell what kind of missile it was when that happens. For SAMS, I just stay out of range and try not to get into a dogfight near them because I'll probably evade right into their kill zone.

Some great information here, thanks all! I'm just starting to learn the SU-25T, and eagerly awaiting MAC. And then who knows what else

:pilotfly: