Brunner Force Feedback Joystick Base - Page 7 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-17-2019, 07:38 AM   #61
Berniyh
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 104
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusedspine33 View Post
So what’s 4Nm feel like / mean in non scientific terminology.
If you want to pull on the stick like you're bonkers (maybe even with both hands, like you see in some action movies), then you won't be happy.
But if you just want to fly a helicopter or plane with very high precision, then it is plenty.


Since I'm mainly flying helicopters, I've actually set it to even lower forces.
Pretty much like people exchange the (often very strong) springs in their joysticks to softer ones to get lower forces and increased precision.


And with the Brunner you get really high input precision.
In contrast to my previous joysticks I don't even need force trim to properly fly the helicopter, it's more like a nice thing to have that you can actually use force trim to make it more comfortable.
With my previous Thrustmaster sticks (ok, these weren't exactly the best, but still …) trimming was not optional, since otherwise I had huge problems, e.g. when trying to land (with the stick being off-center).


Personally I also don't feel the need for an extension, it's more like moving the stick with your fingers, like many people actually don't move their mouse with the whole hand and arm, but just move the fingers around to get the movement (I do so as well).
And obviously finger movement can be very precise.
Berniyh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 12:05 AM   #62
Ranma13
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 498
Default

A small update, I've made some progress on the FFB app and made it look nicer:



Note that the app currently only shows the FFB effects, but does not send them over to the CLS-E, so don't get too excited just yet. I'm still drumming up the funds to purchase a CLS-E base, which will give me access to the CLS2Sim software.

Here's a video of the app with the Ka-50. Note that "center position" means the centering position of the FFB motors, not the stick position:

https://youtu.be/T12sFU0W5KM

And here's a video of it with the Su-25T. I start by adjusting the trim, then perform some maneuvers to get the periodic effect to start playing. I pop off the cockpit to show the period getting longer, which changes the movements from fast and sharp to a more rhythmic movement:

https://youtu.be/QwuLX8X1UMU

I've also discovered some interesting things. vJoy's implementation of FFB reporting is incomplete and doesn't cover several effect types. For example, vJoy won't send any FFB reports when the FFB axes is swapped in DCS, and likewise when changing the damper and friction settings in ForceTest and SimFFB. Also, swapping the FFB axes in DCS won't actually do anything to the FFB message in vJoy, and some aircraft will report their FFB axes the "right" way and others the swapped way. It seems like there's an intermediate layer that handles reversing/un-reversing the FFB axes that vJoy doesn't handle.

Luckily, the axis swapping issue can be fixed by adding a manual checkbox for it, and it seems like neither DCS nor IL:2 BoX uses damper and friction, so we're good on that front. I'll add in manual settings for those 2 effects though since CLS2Sim supports them. It does feel like I'm stepping around a minefield; I haven't triggered any so far, and hopefully it stays that way, but I've had to add multiple workarounds for various issues, mostly stemming from vJoy.

For now I'll have to pause work on this app until I get a CLS-E base. Although I can continue working on integrating DCS' telemetry data with my app, I feel that I should really get the centering and periodic effect nailed down first before working on anything else, since those 2 effects are the foundation of the app. Stay tuned for future updates.
Ranma13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 12:33 AM   #63
Fusedspine33
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 306
Default

Bernihy, I am hopeful for F-18 stick shaker and environmental cues to enhance immersion.
Fusedspine33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 07:06 AM   #64
Berniyh
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 104
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranma13 View Post
For now I'll have to pause work on this app until I get a CLS-E base. Although I can continue working on integrating DCS' telemetry data with my app, I feel that I should really get the centering and periodic effect nailed down first before working on anything else, since those 2 effects are the foundation of the app. Stay tuned for future updates.
hm, nice work, but is it really worth doing this if there is meant to be support for DCS within this year?
Basically you would do this work only to bridge half a year or so.


Don't get me wrong, if you enjoy doing this, please proceed.
Just want to make sure that you're not wasting your time.
Berniyh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 07:16 AM   #65
Berniyh
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 104
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusedspine33 View Post
Bernihy, I am hopeful for F-18 stick shaker and environmental cues to enhance immersion.
For that you don't really need high forces, I think.
4.2 Nm gives you a good and defined feeling of the forces without requiring you to use immense force to steer the aircraft.
As I said, you should be fine, unless you expect to pull on the stick like you're bonkers.



The main thing that would be interesting, but is not possible to do with the CLS-E (and I actually checked this with their support) is to simulate a FSSB type stick (e.g. F-16, iirc).
With the CLS-P (50 Nm) this is possible, but the CLS-E can't do it or at least not properly.
Unfortunately the CLS-P is way too expensive for any home simulator application.
Berniyh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 08:25 AM   #66
Ranma13
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berniyh View Post
hm, nice work, but is it really worth doing this if there is meant to be support for DCS within this year?
Based on this post by kingpinda, Brunner only plans to implement force changing with airspeed for now. I believe I can do much better. Centering is really the must-have FFB effect, especially for helicopters. I'm planning to implement damper and friction, and using SimShaker's lua export as inspiration, I want to also add in things like gun shake, ground rolling bumps, stick shaking near stall speeds, gear transition vibrations, etc.
Ranma13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 01:36 PM   #67
Fusedspine33
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 306
Default

Berniyh, my question was more to gain insight over what measurements actually mean. I am looking for realism not Hollywood. .4 to 4 is a significant statistical increase but I have no experience with any tools that measure Nn. What to expect from the increase was a question I wanted answered. I have no desire to get yanked around in my seat but don’t want a buzzing like a PS4 controller, especially for $1200. Hopefully the 13 apples helps other that are curious about what Nm “feels” like to help them decide if this is something they want to try.
Fusedspine33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 02:05 PM   #68
propeler
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 21
Default

It means that it produces torque 4.2N (0.42 Kg force) per 1 meter of stick length.
For example having stick length 0.3 meter you will have 0.42/0.3 = 1.4kg at maximum deflection.

As about real forces. NATOPS manual for F-18 says that stick force is sum of pitch rate force(no concrete numbers but for MiG 29 it is up to to 5kg at maximum deflection) plus force dependant on G ( near 1.5 kg per G). So, max force at 9G at max deflection can easily reach 15Kg. For 0.3 m stick it requires 50Nm. BUT!!!! Do you really need such real force for home cockpit?
propeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 02:59 PM   #69
Fusedspine33
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 306
Default

Propeller, I am not an engineer and based on your response you seem fluent in enineer-ese. To me realism and realistic have two different contexts. Your response illustrates what I was trying to address, in it you used Kilograms, I have used pounds all my life. Kilos has no more frame of reference than Nm to me. We have all probably picked up an apple or a bag of apples at a roadside stand.

I have flown Pipers, Cessnas and Naval F-14 and F-18 simulators and felt control shake from stalls, increased back pressure from constant rate turns and the like. All of these cues that add to realism are currently missing and I look forward to adding them to the experience. I have no idea if what I experienced in the F-14 and F-18 sims was realistic but the stick forces added realism.
Fusedspine33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2019, 04:30 PM   #70
propeler
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 21
Default

It is all about combination of behaviour and force. To simulate behaviour correctly you need behaviour description. To simulate force correctly we need enough power (Nm) from actuators.... and information about forces on stick in reality. It is key of success. But everything is implementable
propeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
force feedback, joystick

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:31 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.