[CORRECT AS IS] Litening Offset Purpose?

I did some testing and the missile or bomb will always fly to the ground where Pod LOS is pointing at and not the TDC depressed (newly designated) offset target.

 

The only time offset is remotely of any use (at this moment) is to SCS bump a Pt TRK designated offset target into Normal TRK. But that's kind of strange.

Using offset will defenitely update the designated target location (HUD). It will not lase that spot, so a laser guided bomb will most likely hit the center of the pod LOS anyways.

Now that we know that the 65F will track the new offset location (this also works for the E), and that the designated target is updated on the HUD, it makes much more sense that the pod LOS should also move to the offset location.

Otherwise, you will need someone else to lase for you, or you will be limited to use this with JTAC only.

Using offset will defenitely update the designated target location (HUD). It will not lase that spot, so a laser guided bomb will most likely hit the center of the pod LOS anyways.

 

Now that we know that the 65F will track the new offset location (this also works for the E), and that the designated target is updated on the HUD...

I'm trying to understand... don't these two statements contradict each other? The way I read this, you're saying the spot being lased is always the center of the pod FOV, but then saying this also works with the 65E, which is laser guided and so will always impact the lased target?

I'm trying to understand... don't these two statements contradict each other? The way I read this, you're saying the spot being lased is always the center of the pod FOV, but then saying this also works with the 65E, which is laser guided and so will always impact the lased target?

I think he means with MAV E, the seeker triangle in the HUD will always move onto the offset designated target (diamond) but the laser however remains on the FLIR LOS. So the MAV E always hits the LOS target and not the offset target. This should be a bug, logically? (I just tested it again and this is how it happens for both Area TRK and Pt TRK.)

No bug. The laser should be shared LOS with the imaging sensor. It makes the most sense that all weapons of any type are directed to the point at the center of the display and not the tracked image object. The point track is not the target; it's just facilitating image stabilization.

Think of a target location in the middle of a featureless field and there's an orphanage 200m away. You spot track the orphanage but offset the FLIR targeting to an offset away. Not all desired targets are themselves a good candidate for direct optical tracking. In addition you might point track onto a feature of a large building or ship and want to refine your targeting relative to that.

No bug. The laser should be shared LOS with the imaging sensor. It makes the most sense that all weapons of any type are directed to the point at the center of the display and not the tracked image object. The point track is not the target; it's just facilitating image stabilization.

 

Think of a target location in the middle of a featureless field and there's an orphanage 200m away. You spot track the orphanage but offset the FLIR targeting to an offset away. Not all desired targets are themselves a good candidate for direct optical tracking. In addition you might point track onto a feature of a large building or ship and want to refine your targeting relative to that.

So then it is correct the HUD diamond and triangle are on target B (offset) but the Mav E hits target A (LOS)? And when it comes to Mav F they decide it should hit target B and not A? I find that inconsistent and the logic with lased targets really odd.

I'm trying to understand... don't these two statements contradict each other? The way I read this, you're saying the spot being lased is always the center of the pod FOV, but then saying this also works with the 65E, which is laser guided and so will always impact the lased target?

The E seeker will be slewed to the offset (it follows the designated target while uncaged), and will try to spot the laser there.

The F will be slewed to the offset and try to track a target.

So then it is correct the HUD diamond and triangle are on target B (offset) but the Mav E hits target A (LOS)? And when it comes to Mav F they decide it should hit target B and not A? I find that inconsistent and the logic with lased targets really odd.

If it's correct, offset has no purpose. The point is to track something, while you offset the pod LOS to a different location.

This whole thread is about whether or not the pod LOS should center on the offset target, like the ATFLIR:

Currently, it does everything except shifting the pod LOS.

The E seeker will be slewed to the offset (it follows the designated target while uncaged), and will try to spot the laser there.

Yes, except there is no laser at the offset. The laser always stays on the LOS.

Yes, except there is no laser at the offset. The laser always stays on the LOS.

And that's the point.. If the pod LOS doesn't move to the offset location, what's the real purpose of offset as it is modeled in DCS at the moment? Shouldn't it be like the ATFLIR?

In DCS it does everything else except moving the LOS, which seems odd.

And that's the point.. If the pod LOS doesn't move to the offset location, what's the real purpose of offset as it is modeled in DCS at the moment? Shouldn't it be like the ATFLIR?

 

In DCS it does everything else except moving the LOS, which seems odd.

Yep. I've reviewed Wags' video and summarised my findings in post #24 above (https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4474029&postcount=24).

Thanks to RedKite's new video tutorial on the TGP which clarifies the use of offsets.

See -

After some testing, basically...

a) Area and Point Track offsets work with GPS weapons like the JDAM. You just have to TDC depress the offset target to update the offset coords in the GPS weapon. The bomb will fly to the offset target.

b) For laser guided weapons, you have to use Point Track and TDC depress the desired offset target. After weapon launch, bump the SCS to the TGP to set the diamond onto the offset target in OPR mode. This is a slewable track mode which the laser will follow - the laser will always lase what's in the LOS (center of TGP) and not the offset cross. Hence the SCS bump to OPR is necessary.

The video explains that offsets are of use in IRL because the desired target sometimes cannot be locked up if it is dim and of low contrast in the TGP. So a bright hot spot object nearby is locked up instead. The offset is then placed over the desired target. But in DCS, this problem doesn't quite occur making offsets somewhat unnecessary.

Thanks to RedKite's new video tutorial on the TGP which clarifies the use of offsets.

 

See -

 

After some testing, basically...

 

a) Area and Point Track offsets work with GPS weapons like the JDAM. You just have to TDC depress the offset target to update the offset coords in the GPS weapon. The bomb will fly to the offset target.

 

b) For laser guided weapons, you have to use Point Track and TDC depress the desired offset target. After weapon launch, bump the SCS to the TGP to set the diamond onto the offset target in OPR mode. This is a slewable track mode which the laser will follow - the laser will always lase what's in the LOS (center of TGP) and not the offset cross. Hence the SCS bump to OPR is necessary.

 

The video explains that offsets are of use in IRL because the desired target sometimes cannot be locked up if it is dim and of low contrast in the TGP. So a bright hot spot object nearby is locked up instead. The offset is then placed over the desired target. But in DCS, this problem doesn't quite occur making offsets somewhat unnecessary.

GPS weapons really shouldn't, though. Laser ranging is a necessity for getting good coordinates for JDAMs, and the laser does not follow the cursor.

Thanks to RedKite's new video tutorial on the TGP which clarifies the use of offsets.

 

See -

 

After some testing, basically...

 

a) Area and Point Track offsets work with GPS weapons like the JDAM. You just have to TDC depress the offset target to update the offset coords in the GPS weapon. The bomb will fly to the offset target.

 

b) For laser guided weapons, you have to use Point Track and TDC depress the desired offset target. After weapon launch, bump the SCS to the TGP to set the diamond onto the offset target in OPR mode. This is a slewable track mode which the laser will follow - the laser will always lase what's in the LOS (center of TGP) and not the offset cross. Hence the SCS bump to OPR is necessary.

 

The video explains that offsets are of use in IRL because the desired target sometimes cannot be locked up if it is dim and of low contrast in the TGP. So a bright hot spot object nearby is locked up instead. The offset is then placed over the desired target. But in DCS, this problem doesn't quite occur making offsets somewhat unnecessary.

And thus, you have accurately described why we think the current implementation is wrong.

You should be able to lock a high contrast object, and then offset the pods LOS so that you can target something other than the high contrast object. But currently in DCS, you cant target anything other than what you are tracking, so you are stuck targeting the high contrast objects.

Like this in ATFLIR, see how he has a good track and then offsets everything relative to the track.

[CORRECT AS IS] Litening Offset Purpose?

And thus, you have accurately described why we think the current implementation is wrong.

 

You should be able to lock a high contrast object, and then offset the pods LOS so that you can target something other than the high contrast object. But currently in DCS, you cant target anything other than what you are tracking, so you are stuck targeting the high contrast objects.

 

 

Like this in ATFLIR, see how he has a good track and then offsets everything relative to the track.

As described, in DCS you can target and hit offsets with GPS bombs. They work as one would expect, that is hitting the offset target without moving the LOS, provided you TDC designate the offset target.

It's only with the laser where things get a little confusing. The laser never lases outside the TGP LOS (center of screen). I am assuming that is true IRL. Hence, the need to SCS to OPR mode on the Point Track offset.

The video is saying the TGP implementation in DCS (F/A-18C) is accurate except for the fact that the TGP does a better job of locking stuff up than IRL, thus negating the need for offsets.

I'm not sure what the video in your link is saying as DCS can do that too.

Update: Sorry, I get now that the issue is with making the offset the TGP LOS which DCS does not do.

DCS can absolutely not do the behavior shown in the linked video. In DCS the tracked object must be the center of the TGP LOS, in the linked video that's not the case.

DCS can absolutely not do the behavior shown in the linked video. In DCS the tracked object must be the center of the TGP LOS, in the linked video that's not the case.

Ahh I see what you mean, you’re right.

GPS weapons really shouldn't, though. Laser ranging is a necessity for getting good coordinates for JDAMs, and the laser does not follow the cursor.

I see what you mean, that in DCS the laser stays in LOS and so can’t be ranging the offset (which isn’t in LOS) yet the GPS coords of the offset still get updated. But the TGP updates its crosshair coords as it is slewed without any laser firing. So why would it need lasing to obtain offset coords?

Thank you Redkite, excellent video!!

 

The ATFLIR offset makes a lot more sense, you can see how you would use it to track the high contrast object but then lase onto something else. My assumption would be that ED might have misinterpreted things, but I have been reassured to the contrary.

ED must have gotten it wrong, just like the JDAM logic that they had to overhaul because of a misinterpretation of documents after tagging correct as is in dozens of threads. They're humans and they can make mistakes. You can tell they probably got it wrong when you realize that the offset logic in the ATFLIR is by offsetting the "new point" rather than leaving the old one centered. I hope they can revisit this.