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Spitfire Start-up


NineLine

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"You can please some of the people some of the time... but you can't please all of the people all of the time".

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Dashed odd accent, if you don't mind me saying... Some sort of bally Foreigner!;)

 

As this is a classic British aircraft, might I suggest that dropping the anachronistic Americanisms (it's a "lee-vah" over here, Chaps) and having someone using a nice clipped RP (that's Received Pronunciation, not a Rocket Projectile) accent to do the voice-overs?

 

/QUOTE]

 

Heavens, I'm imagining a Lancashire accent or Cornish, Yorkshire or London dockside.

 

Then we would need a dictionary with the manual or at least a pint included with every purchase. :)

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  • ED Team
^ Wags is the only native English speaking person amongst ED producers, so he always narrates these teaser / work in progress videos for Western customers. Would You prefer to have on of the Russian guys narrating it in rough "Engrish"? :D

 

Doesn't mean that he will be narrator in the actual in-game training mission though. Looking at recent ED-produced modules, they hired someone from German community to narrate tutorials for the Bf-109, and someone from Russian to narrate tutorials for L-39, so who knows, maybe they'll find some Brit to do the talking for the Spit.

 

I am hoping he can talk Nick Grey into one or two of his videos :)

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Heavens, I'm imagining a Lancashire accent or Cornish, Yorkshire or London dockside.

 

Then we would need a dictionary with the manual or at least a pint included with every purchase. :)

 

Ay-ooop!

 

I'm now imagining the RAAF Australian localisation:

 

"Alright, Mate? Right, you'll see there's all these bloody buttons... but the only one you need to worry about is the one on your stick. Press that, and the Jap gonna get pretty browned off. Okay? Right-o, I'll just sign you off here. Oh, don't worry about all that, Mate. Flown one bird, you've flown them all, eh? Look, just get your wheels up and I'm sure you'll work it all out yourself... Cheerio."

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My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

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Ay-ooop!

 

I'm now imagining the RAAF Australian localisation:

 

"Alright, Mate? Right, you'll see there's all these bloody buttons... but the only one you need to worry about is the one on your stick. Press that, and the Jap gonna get pretty browned off. Okay? Right-o, I'll just sign you off here. Oh, don't worry about all that, Mate. Flown one bird, you've flown them all, eh? Look, just get your wheels up and I'm sure you'll work it all out yourself... Cheerio."

 

:thumbup:

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"You can please some of the people some of the time... but you can't please all of the people all of the time".

 

Not sure whom you are referring to but if it's Cripple - he's dead-right with the controls issues. Spit dedicated enthusiasts would see these issues right away and then watch the fireworks.

 

Hope they are corrected before initial offering.

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  • ED Team
Not sure whom you are referring to but if it's Cripple - he's dead-right with the controls issues. Spit dedicated enthusiasts would see these issues right away and then watch the fireworks.

 

Hope they are corrected before initial offering.

 

Nick Grey is signing off on all things Spitfire. So I hope those Spit dedicated enthusiasts have time in the real thing like Mr Grey does ;)

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Nick Grey is signing off on all things Spitfire. So I hope those Spit dedicated enthusiasts have time in the real thing like Mr Grey does ;)

 

Excellent, now if WAGS would hold off on startup sequences until Mr. Grey approved them . . . . . . :)

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Does this Mr Grey have time in a modern Spit, or a time-machine to go back to the 40's mk IX model (as simulated by ED)?

 

Look, I'm not trying to urinate over anyone's ego here, but (as others have confirmed) the start-up procedure as given in the video is blatantly at odds with that as given in the (period) Pilot's Notes. RTFM - Read The Flying Manual. :thumbup:

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My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

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Does this Mr Grey
brilliant!!

 

Now what would the man who owns the Fighter collection know about warbirds? I also downloaded a copy of a Mk IX Spit flying manual off the internet and this also makes me a Spitfire expert and I agree, operating the same controls in the 21st century is nothing like it was in the 1940's.

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brilliant!!

 

Now what would the man who owns the Fighter collection know about warbirds? I also downloaded a copy of a Mk IX Spit flying manual off the internet and this also makes me a Spitfire expert and I agree, operating the same controls in the 21st century is nothing like it was in the 1940's.

 

Your sarcasm does you credit. I fear some of the foreign nationals may not get it though. :thumbup:

 

You'll have heard of Socrates' Axe? Well, he says he owned the same axe for 50 years - only had to replace the handle three times and the head twice...

 

There is a similar issue with these warbirds. They are wonderful pieces of our various national aviation histories, and should be both preserved and flown, but they are not (for reasons of air safety, if nothing else) the same aeroplanes that flew 70-odd years ago. I think we need to be clear about what is being simulated here - the 1940's mk IX or the 2010's mk IX, as this might clear up some of the ambiguity.

 

You may wish to note that neither Mr Vagner nor Mr Grey (nor their representatives) have stepped forward to either confirm or deny the issues with the start-up procedure as raised. I would have no problem if someone, speaking from a position of knowledge or citing appropriate evidence, was to say (for example), "Ah, yes... that is indeed the procedure in the pilot's notes, but in practice one did X,Y,Z... as evidenced in John Snodgrass' war memoirs and AP666 etc."

 

Maybe I am fortunate with the environment I work in, but it is relatively free from this "Me Big Chief Caveman, Me have biggest club" mentality, and from the similar "Me Smaller Caveman, Him Big Chief Caveman, Him have biggest club" tribal mentality. If I stuff-up at work - which I do - and someone points that I've missed their Annual Leave, or put two Tuesdays in a week, our respective pay grade and/or length of service is largely irrelevant. What matters is the facts - was I in error, or was I not? If I wasn't, I can explain why. And, because I have a big pair of balls, I can man-up and admit my own professional errors without denting my (frankly robust) ego.

 

I don't think anyone has claimed to be an "expert" here, particularly not me. As for the linked "internet" document - perhaps that is for the edification of the masses, rather than indicative of my sole source of information. Moreover, the point still stands: the shown start-up procedure is at odds with that as the Pilot's Notes for that aircraft (see previous link). Which begs the question: why?

Answers of an e-postcard to the usual address.

  • Like 1

My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

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It wont be the first time a video released early as an appetiser missed some features/processes that later made it into the release version, buddy. Not saying that I know what the differences are in process as you describe, but certainly I have seen things change, in fact, EVERY module changes after you can buy it, so It doesn't concern me yet as we are before even that point right now. Best to worry about this later, it's not even out yet and all software modules have a process of refinement that they go through. I'm sure though, that the feedback you are providing will have been heard.

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a 2010's MkIX is still using 1940's start and booster buttons, wobble pumps and Ki-gas primer, Merlin engine etc etc, they are completely authentic and have no modern manufactured mechanical replacement parts with the exception of perhaps spark plugs, perishables and propeller blades, look in the cockpit of the 2010 MH434 and you are looking at the cockpit of a 1940's MH434 with the addition of a modern radio, I would bet that the 1940's start procedure could be used with no issues but in the last 70 years there have been some changes in technique.

Socrates may have found a better way to swing his axe.

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[*]Start-up sequence at ~5:30 onwards is at odds with that as listed in the appropriate Pilot's Notes - paras. 36. For the tl:dr generation, this states that one should move the idle cut-off lever (lee-vah) to RUN before pressing the starter and booster buttons, not after. It also states that one then releases only the starter button, keeping the booster button depressed and working the priming pump (if necessary) until the engine catches. The video sequence is reminiscent of the P-51...

[*]No smoke?:music_whistling:

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/SPIT9MANUAL.pdf

 

 

I have to humble ask you two questions: what kind of carburettor this manual refer to, and - what sequencies are you waiting if RUN position of the Bendix-Stromberg carb will be set BEFORE start-up...

 

 

Then, this booster coil and priming pump jockeing is very dependant on engine state, fuel, etc, etc...

there is only one kind of easy and smooth R-R start and a lot of kinds complicated ones.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Does this Mr Grey have time in a modern Spit, or a time-machine to go back to the 40's mk IX model (as simulated by ED)?

 

Look, I'm not trying to urinate over anyone's ego here, but (as others have confirmed) the start-up procedure as given in the video is blatantly at odds with that as given in the (period) Pilot's Notes. RTFM - Read The Flying Manual. :thumbup:

 

I am going to go with someone that has flown a Spitfire IX over someone that has flown the manual. Sorry, just personal preference. I have noted the discrepancies from some manuals out there, and things like the wobble pump, I am able to start using that method. Seems there might be more than one way to start a Spitfire.

 

But, as always, I am always looking for more experiences of flying the real thing, so please if you have some, do tell, but if they involve pushing the "i" key to start the aircraft, you might just want to sit back and see how the module looks at release, and trust ED in doing what they have proven they are professionally able to do, which is simulate aircraft.

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Cripple, I understand where You're coming from, but the thread reminds me a couple of debates we had in P-51 section of the forum, on this very subject. Debates, which featured at least two separate wartime P-51D/K manuals listing different startup procedures, which... were also different from restored Mustang startup procedures featured in various clips, courtesy of youtube. Apparently there are a couple of ways to start a 60-series Merlin on the Mustang, so I wouldn't be surprised in that was also the case in its British installation.

 

As long as all of these result in a working engine, use the one You wish. Unlike in A2A FSX warbirds, we don't have to worry about engine & accessories wear in DCS anyway.

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I took some time last evening to search Youtube for Spitfire startup sequences and discovered several variables by different pilots and different variants of the Spitfire.

 

For the most part, any differences I found seemed to be related to pilot personal preference and were minimal.

 

Two however caught my eye - one involving the magneto switches and one the engine cutoff lever cockpit left side.

 

Initially WAGS showed the pre-start check ensuring that the appropriate systems were off. Standard procedure for all the video I saw. (safety).

 

Regarding the cutoff lever - WAGS showed the lever full back and then forward as the engine turned over - most startups did indeed show the lever in the back/off position during the priming and electrical sequence. It became clear to me that it was off in order to prevent a premature engine turnover should something be pressed that shouldn't be pressed. But . . . . the only difference I saw was that the lever was pushed forward just prior to ignition rather than during ignition. Potato/Potahto.

 

In general terms, WAGS procedures appear to be similar to most of the vids I saw and any differences were minor - for example: after priming, WAGS had the primer pump pushed in but not locked. Vids showed pilots leaving it out and then pushing it in and locking after everything was warmed up. (leaving it out was in case it had to be re-primed during a difficult start and also appeared to be for visual reference that it was still unlocked.) Again - no biggee!

 

Lots of interesting stuff to see there.

 

I'm really looking forward to this magnificent mix of art, science and technology.


Edited by Catseye
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The startup sequence in the video matches the sequence in these Spitfire VII & VIII Pilot's Notes from 1943, with the small exception that the pilot release the starter button when the engine fires, push the idle cut-off control forward, then release the booster-coil button once the engine was running satisfactorily: I agree with Cateseye et al - it's no biggie.

 

(mind you, I'd prefer a sequence where the pilot is asked to wind the elastic thingamajig 30 turns, crank the hoojah until it can't be cranked any more, open the whatsits 3 inches, pull the lever and prod the pedal... :pilotfly: )

193222632_SpitfireVIIampVIIIPNsb7.thumb.jpg.4f2c83233ac9ac8a32d33125ffbf9d3f.jpg

772774811_SpitfireVIIampVIIIPNsb8.thumb.jpg.4ffcb9a9cb0dfd4ac6b271bd54d6b96c.jpg

1632173052_SpitfireVIIampVIIIPNsa5.thumb.jpg.6a0ee710ed43566faaa43ec014782ff8.jpg

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I have to humble ask you two questions: what kind of carburettor this manual refer to, and - what sequencies are you waiting if RUN position of the Bendix-Stromberg carb will be set BEFORE start-up...

 

 

Then, this booster coil and priming pump jockeing is very dependant on engine state, fuel, etc, etc...

there is only one kind of easy and smooth R-R start and a lot of kinds complicated ones.

 

Afternoon Yo-Yo,

 

Para. 36 of the Pilot's Notes (as linked), as also referenced previously, was for the Bendrix-Stromberg carburetted Merlin 66 (although it also covers the 70 and 266 models). I believe the Spitfire Mk IX currently being simulated by ED was confirmed as using this engine.

 

You may wish to look over paras. 24 and 25 of the Pilot's Notes (as linked). These indicate that the presence of the Idle Cut-off Lever, rather than a ring in the dash, would indicate this has a Bendrix-Stromberg carb. Note that this lever is where the Mixture lever would be on earlier marks of aircraft.

 

(For all of you who are following this in your own facsimiles of period documents, look section within 8 of AP1565J&L for confirmation of the above. Figure 8A in the 1944 edition, and Figure 3 in the 1945 one.)

 

I'm afraid I don't quite follow your second question. Care to elaborate?

 

 

(Here's a wee e-link for convenience...)

 

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/SPIT9MANUAL.pdf

My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

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  • ED Team
Afternoon Yo-Yo,

 

Para. 36 of the Pilot's Notes (as linked), as also referenced previously, was for the Bendrix-Stromberg carburetted Merlin 66 (although it also covers the 70 and 266 models). I believe the Spitfire Mk IX currently being simulated by ED was confirmed as using this engine.

 

You may wish to look over paras. 24 and 25 of the Pilot's Notes (as linked). These indicate that the presence of the Idle Cut-off Lever, rather than a ring in the dash, would indicate this has a Bendrix-Stromberg carb. Note that this lever is where the Mixture lever would be on earlier marks of aircraft.

 

(For all of you who are following this in your own facsimiles of period documents, look section within 8 of AP1565J&L for confirmation of the above. Figure 8A in the 1944 edition, and Figure 3 in the 1945 one.)

 

I'm afraid I don't quite follow your second question. Care to elaborate?

 

 

(Here's a wee e-link for convenience...)

 

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/SPIT9MANUAL.pdf

 

I am afraid, I am loosing the point... I can not understand now, what is the mistake you stated before?

 

In the video Merlin 66 with B-S carburettor is started. So, you MUST have the idle cut-off lever in OFF position (what would be if you kept it open... that was my question for you, remember? :) ), then as the engine fired, the idle cut-off lever was advanced. And it was exactly as the manual directs.

Then, both buttons were released... ok, it was not STRICTLY following the directions, but the key is that the booster coil is an additional source of high voltage only to assist magneto as rpm are lower than idle.

 

By the way, the same V1650-7 have only one button - for the starter - and the booster coil is in parallel to the starter. This fact does not prevent the engine from being started...

 

So, the engine start is not a magic sequence of prescribed movings. The man who starts it must know what any control does for the engine and must act accordingly.

For example, the plain 4 cylinders carburettor engine of 60' cold start requires to close the special start-up throttle that causes mixture enrichment. But if the cable to this throttle is broken, you can start the engine priming it as you pump the accelerator pedal exactly as Merlin primer pump. I mean the booster pump that injects a fuel stream just to the carb air channel.

 

Some real Merlin's starts are not successful - additional priming is necessary sometimes or overpriming is possible, etc. Sometimes a plane stays on the ground because the pilot could not start the engine...

 

 

And moreover - for example, the magnetos could be switched on after the starter, you can start priming after it... it all allow the engine to be started successfully, because any simple engine must be fed with the proper mixture, have means to ignite it and a source to rotate it till the first cylinders can produce enough torque to spool it up.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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  • ED Team
So going back to electric power, I notice there is a generator switch in the bottom left near the rudder trim. Is this a battery on/off and what was the use of ground power for this version of Spitfire?

 

From Wags: "No, the battery is enabled outside of the cockpit before starting up. For a cold start, we assume the battery was turned on."

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And this one too, even though he seems to use his own procedure,

 

 

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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