Limited RSBN navigation

Having just bought the L39 I am disappointed to see that there are only 4 air bases that use the RSBN navigation and landing system. :cry:

The old RSBN stations are "realistically" out of action! Since this is a Russian navigation system. This leaves only the ADF for navigation.

All the station codes must be there somewhere. Pre DCS 1.5 they were implemented?

Is there a mod or any way I can tune to the old RSBN stations, I the south. With such a superb simulation, its spoiled by the lack of navigation points.

Thanks

I agree. Only downside to the L-39 module is the limited radio navigation.

I agree. Only downside to the L-39 module is the limited radio navigation.

Thanks, lets hope the guys at ED can "enable" those old transmitters. I have the tuning numbers for the pre 1.5 map, sadly they don't work.

This is little beauty of an aircraft, shame its limited to ADF only:cry:

Best regards

David

Edit. I just read that the L39 is bugged after the latest 2.5 update, but to be honest I have not yet tried it in 2. Surely you can't navigate this aircraft in North America? No VOR/ILS/TACAN...?

Pre DCS 1.5 they were implemented?

No, the MiG-21bis uses a custom beacon list rather than read the Caucasus map data and FC3 aircraft used a simplified navigation model.

Is there a mod or any way I can tune to the old RSBN stations, I the south.

Tarres made a list of 'old' RSBN stations in this post in the NTTR Extra beacons thread.

With such a superb simulation, its spoiled by the lack of navigation points.

The RSBN system has a 'manual' mode (accelerometers and gyros) for 'dead reckoning' above the cloud and old fashioned NDB navigation/landing with timed approaches (rather than DME) isn't too bad, once you get used to it and makes a change from 'no skill' GPS moving maps, etc.

It's one of the charms of the L-39 and totally realistic. In 1983 Northrop ferried F-5's from the USA to international customers by flying off the wing of a Gulf Stream / Lear Jet that handled the navigation/communications, precisely because of such limitations.

wouldnt be easier to create a RSBN station???? as Units?? (or TACANs)

I agree. Quite disappointing to have such limit

wouldnt be easier to create a RSBN station???? as Units?? (or TACANs)

 

Yes! Now that would e a fine addition to the Mission Editor.:thumbup:

I am not just trying to enjoy flying over the entire 1.5 map, but create some missions. Being somewhat spoiled by the navigation in the Viggen (automatic computerised dead reckoning), the Hog (GPS) and the Ka-50 (GPS).

With a mobile RSBN station, we could navigate anywhere in DCS World 1.5, or 2.0(when the current release bug is sorted).......hey, even the Normandy Map?:smilewink:

Can ED code these please and add them to the Mission Editor!:thumbup:

Regards

David

Having just bought the L39 I am disappointed to see that there are only 4 air bases that use the RSBN navigation and landing system. :cry:

 

The old RSBN stations are "realistically" out of action! Since this is a Russian navigation system. This leaves only the ADF for navigation.

 

All the station codes must be there somewhere. Pre DCS 1.5 they were implemented?

 

 

Is there a mod or any way I can tune to the old RSBN stations, I the south. With such a superb simulation, its spoiled by the lack of navigation points.

 

Thanks

Well, the answer is then in the future when ED would finally implement the RSBN realistically, meaning we get it on the transportable ground trucks that are used on the operation areas and difficult areas to widen the navigation network.

So it would be then for mission designers to set any wanted RSBN navigation mesh as required and let pilots use it.

I always find "cheating" when you are flying realistic missions using whatever RSBN availables (or TACANs).

Taking into account that when you edit a mission, very often you are using fictitious map... considering different borders. You shouldnt have a station near the target, if such target is placed in enemy territory. If so, navigation skills would be a must. both, IFR and VFR...

I always find "cheating" when you are flying realistic missions using whatever RSBN availables (or TACANs).

 

Taking into account that when you edit a mission, very often you are using fictitious map... considering different borders. You shouldnt have a station near the target, if such target is placed in enemy territory. If so, navigation skills would be a must. both, IFR and VFR...

Unless you are a first attackers, then you would have RSBN on the area as the transportable stations would move among the ground troops for the bases etc. That so the ground troops can support the air force operations, that is supporting the ground troops advancement.

But as long we don't have a dynamic map in DCS we can't do anything about it. Meaning that when we start a new mission creation (or we can do it with triggers) we can choose what actual borders are for specific countries (Red/Blue/Neutral).

So if the operation country is enemy, automatically all the navigation aids from there are encrypted for their aircrafts only.

The triggers would allow us to change individual stations or whole country depending how mission builders wants to do do it middle of the campaign.

This would as well easily allow create many other mission types when we would have the borders capable to be triggered. Like a create a air police missions where pilots needs to be careful not to cross the border. Or when you are closing the border, AI would automatically send interceptors to meet them at the border.

[ATTACH]158578[/ATTACH]

Hi there.

Here is my own attempt to implement RSBN/PRMG and ADF on Groom Lake, Creech and Toponah airports.

This mod is EARLY WIP, and may need of more precision parameters setup, but IMHO it works correctly. Maybe, some coding skilled entusiasts will take this idea and complete this work, because unfortunately I have lack of time to do this for all airports in map.

List of frequencies and channels:

ADF:

Groom Lake AFB:

ADF on 700 and 710 Khz (near and far homer single direction)

Creech AFB:

ADF on 760,770,780,790 Khz (near and far homer for each runway, both directions)

Toponah AFB:

ADF on 720,730,740,750 Khz (near and far homer, both directions).

RSBN/PRMG:

Groom Lake AFB:

RSBN:channel 20 (navigation)

PRMG:channel 22 (landing system, single direction)

Creech AFB:

RSBN :channel 28 (navigation)

PRMG:channel 30, 32 (landing system, for each runway, both directions)

Toponah AFB:

RSBN:channel 24 (navigation)

PRMG:channel 26 (landing system, both directions)

INSTALLATION: simply put in Mods/terrains/Nevada and replace the existing file.

IMPORTANT !!! You should use this mod on your own risk, don't forget to make backup of original file. This mod will not work with Mig-21, LN has different realisation of theese systems.

KNOWN ISSUES - ADF fequencies and RSBN/PRMG channel numbers will NOT shown in F10 table of frequencies, but in Mission Editor you should see all beacons on map.

For correct use of PRMG in L-39, don't forget to set up barometric pressure on right console

Unless you are a first attackers, then you would have RSBN on the area as the transportable stations would move among the ground troops for the bases etc. That so the ground troops can support the air force operations, that is supporting the ground troops advancement.

 

But as long we don't have a dynamic map in DCS we can't do anything about it. Meaning that when we start a new mission creation (or we can do it with triggers) we can choose what actual borders are for specific countries (Red/Blue/Neutral).

So if the operation country is enemy, automatically all the navigation aids from there are encrypted for their aircrafts only.

The triggers would allow us to change individual stations or whole country depending how mission builders wants to do do it middle of the campaign.

 

This would as well easily allow create many other mission types when we would have the borders capable to be triggered. Like a create a air police missions where pilots needs to be careful not to cross the border. Or when you are closing the border, AI would automatically send interceptors to meet them at the border.

The portable RSBN is an important idea for ED to consider. Its realistic and fits with the "historic" nature of the aircraft flown in the 1.5 map. Apart from the Ka-50 (GPS) and SU25, we are in need if some radio beacons to find our way to targets, if flying those jets.

The post prior to this has a guy doing a mod for RSBN use in the 2.0 Map. This is great news for the L39/Mig21 drivers, but in that area, just purely academic, since there will never be a conflict using older Russian jets in the Nevada desert. However it would at least permit pilots of the L39/Mig 21 to navigate the area. Also aid the creation of Red Flag type scenarios using the L39 and Mig21.

My original post has stimulated this great idea of the mobile, front line RSBN units. I enjoy creating scenarios in the mission editor and would welcome the addition of the mobile RSBN. I hope it gets added. Or at least a way to use the Mig 21 RSBN receiver in the L39? The primary aim being to navigate accurately around the whole 1.5 map! Once we can do that, accurate ground attack missions, in poor visibility, may be flown. The mission designers can then prioritize RSBN units as game changing targets. Just as the TACAN/Vortex/NDB /Satellite transmitters would be priority for any enemy.

Looking at the Viggen, that is possibly the only aircraft that can operate fully autonomously in a hostile zone. Not needing any help from transmitters to find the target! Way to go Saab!:thumbup:

Cheers:)

This is great news for the L39/Mig21 drivers

This mod CAN NOT work with Mig-21.

Leatherneck Simulations used completely different realisation scheme, because there's no RSBN in DCS World at moment of Mig-21 release. They used IMHO not the best solution, but they simply had no other choices. Implementation STATIC RSBN/PRMG for Mig-21 is very similar to my mod creating priciple, but its must be done in Mig-21 module code. If you open two files Mods\aircraft\MIG-21bis\Cockpit\Systems\R_NAV_data_Nevada.lua and Mods\aircraft\MIG-21bis\Cockpit\Systems\R_NAV_data_Caucasus.lua with any text editor like Notepad, Notepad++, etc., you will see the princpile of its realisation. Of course, if you have any minimal coding skills. But implementation of MOBILE RSBN/PRMG or other similar systems, is a completely different task, and I think only ED or big 3rd-party developers team can do that pretty cool thing.

EDIT:

I think that there's no way to use Mig-21 reciever in L-39 and vice versa. There is fundamental, complete difference, not only in code, but also in systems "architecture" design. In other words, the main difference between LN and ED RSBN/PRMG realisation is in that fact, that ED "virtually transmited" signals in DCS World, and any aircraft that have that systems realised like in L-39 will "virtually recieve" this data. LN creates "simuation in simulation" - BOTH transmitter and reciever parameters is hardcoded in Mig-21 module. That means if ED creates any map that contains theese navigational systems, any aircraft that uses ED's method automaticaly got working navigation without any changes in its code. In other side LN will need to code changes for ANY module and ANY map where this navigational equipment present and must work. I hope that guys from LN understand all limitations of that's approach too, and will re-worked this code in future.

Excuse my poor English, hope that you will understand what I am mean. Cheers )

UPD: In topic context, this also means that even if anyone create mobile RSBN, it will work with L-39, but will not work with Mig-21 until LN not change own RSBN code architecture to ED's version.

This mod CAN NOT Mig 21.

Leatherneck Simulations used completely different realisation scheme, because there's no RSBN in DCS World at moment of Mig-21 release. They used IMHO not the best solution, but they simply had no other choices. Implementation STATIC RSBN/PRMG for Mig-21 is very similar to my mod creating priciple, but its must be done in Mig-21 module code. If you open two files Mods\aircraft\MIG-21bis\Cockpit\Systems\R_NAV_data_Nevada.lua and Mods\aircraft\MIG-21bis\Cockpit\Systems\R_NAV_data_Caucasus.lua with any text editor like Notepad, Notepad++, etc., you will see the princpile of its realisation. Of course, if you have any minimal coding skills. But implementation of MOBILE RSBN/PRMG or other similar systems, is a completely different task, and I think only ED or big 3rd-party developers team can do that pretty cool thing.

 

EDIT:

I think that there's no way to use Mig-21 reciever in L-39 and vice versa. There is fundamental, complete difference, not only in code, but also in systems "architecture" design. In other words, the main difference between LN and ED RSBN/PRMG realisation is in that fact, that ED "virtually transmited" signals in DCS World, and any aircraft that have that systems realised like in L-39 will "virtually recieve" this data. LN creates "simuation in simulation" - BOTH transmitter and reciever parameters is hardcoded in Mig-21 module. That means if ED creates any map that contains theese navigational systems, any aircraft that uses ED's method automaticaly got working navigation without any changes in its code. In other side LN will need to code changes for ANY module and ANY map where this navigational equipment present and must work. I hope that guys from LN understand all limitations of that's approach too, and will re-worked this code in future.

 

Excuse my poor English, hope that you will understand what I am mean. Cheers )

 

UPD: In topic context, this also means that even if anyone create mobile RSBN, it will work with L-39, but will not work with Mig-21 until LN not change own RSBN code architecture to ED's version.

Yes, thanks for the information.

I think the RSBN/PRMG seems a bit of a mess then? The Mig 21 and L39 using RSBN/PRMG but different code in different sims.

The whole RSBN/PRMG needs to be standardised as one code. Then those mobile transmitters could be used in all the maps.

For now it looks like the MIG 21 can navigate in NTTR map, using its in built coded RSBN/PRMG receiver that's specific to the LN Mig 21 and not the actual map. The L39 can tune the NDB frequencies with its variable tuner but NDB is inadequate for combat navigation. Even if there were NDB's in Nevada, its still far from ideal to navigate over a desert range!

Still a shame the 1.5 map has only 4 RSBN stations that the L39 can use. This means the map to the south can not be navigated! A real shame, since this L39 sim is one of the best simulation aircraft models I have seen, anywhere! Including FSX/P3d.

Hope it gets sorted out in the future? Please!

Best Regards

David

Thanks, David )

I am absolutely assured that in DCS community many users also trying to find the solution. For example, I am had exactly the same idea about mobile navigaton beacons, but can not find any practial ways to its realisation. Any user, who had even html editing skills, even on minimal level, CAN add static beacons on any map, include Caucasus too. My mod main priciple is not in any "hacks" or adding any new algoritms to existing ED code. I am just set up parameters - coordinates, headings, frequencies, etc , using standart ED realisation. Main trouble in that fact, that we can not get coordinates in required format from mission editor, and every beacon that you need to add must be set up manually on map, that requires many (sometines 30-50 attempts) manual "geoposition" corrections in code for each beacon, and it is so sloooow (

I am absolutely sure that in our community are users who can find more effective method of setting up geographic positions of beacons. The more easy way MUST be present, even if I am can not see it, but someone will. I am just want show to community a possibility to do that.

Together we CAN make our DCS World better.

With best wishes, Max.

[ATTACH]158465[/ATTACH]

Hi there.

Here is my own attempt to implement RSBN/PRMG and ADF on Groom Lake, Creech and Toponah airports.

This mod is EARLY WIP, and may need of more precision parameters setup, but IMHO it works correctly. Maybe, some coding skilled entusiasts will take this idea and complete this work, because unfortunately I have lack of time to do this for all airports in map.

 

List of frequencies and channels:

 

ADF:

Groom Lake AFB:

ADF on 700 and 710 Khz (near and far homer single direction)

Creech AFB:

ADF on 760,770,780,790 Khz (near and far homer for each runway, both directions)

Toponah AFB:

ADF on 720,730,740,750 Khz (near and far homer, both directions).

 

RSBN/PRMG:

Groom Lake AFB:

RSBN:channel 20 (navigation)

PRMG:channel 22 (landing system, single direction)

Creech AFB:

RSBN :channel 28 (navigation)

PRMG:channel 30, 32 (landing system, for each runway, both directions)

Toponah AFB:

RSBN:channel 24 (navigation)

PRMG:channel 26 (landing system, both directions)

 

INSTALLATION: simply put in Mods/terrains/Nevada and replace the existing file.

IMPORTANT !!! You should use this mod on your own risk, don't forget to make backup of original file. This mod will not work with Mig-21, LN has different realisation of theese systems.

KNOWN ISSUES - ADF fequencies and RSBN/PRMG channel numbers will NOT shown in F10 table of frequencies, but in Mission Editor you should see all beacons on map.

For correct use of PRMG in L-39, don't forget to set up barometric pressure on right console

Hi Max.

The attachment link in your post goes to an invalid attachment link? Is there another one?

Flying around the Nevada map in the L39 without navigation beacons is just very unrealistic!:music_whistling:

Regards

David

[ATTACH]158578[/ATTACH] Hi David, this is looks strange, here's new link in .zip archive.

Thanks Max.

I will give it a test flight tomorrow.

Cheers.:)

[ATTACH]158578[/ATTACH] Hi David, this is looks strange, here's new link in .zip archive.

You sir, are a Steely eyed missile man!

Rep inbound!

Your mod is perfect!

ED should ask you to do ALL the runways in the NTTR and ALL the runways in the 1.5 Caucuses map! And slip you some cash as well!

Then we can fly the L39 everywhere with full navigation!

Thank you for this mod.

Best regards

David

Hmm, I tried to use the same method to add the RSBN station to Kobuleti on the Caucasus map, but it doesn't seem to work.

I was able to succesfully add RSBN station to Gelendzhik using this code added to the airdrome = {} section.

{

type = BEACON_TYPE_RSBN,

callsign = "GL",

frequency = 815000000.0,-- channel 15

channel = 15,

position = coordinates("44'34'11N 38'00'32E 40"),

}

I used the coordinates from the NDB. It also appears in mission editor now and even passes integrity check.

Don't forget to use comma after } of the previous beacon under airdrome = {}.

I think this method should work also for PRMG, I will try it tonight.

Ok, now I see my error, I copied frequencies from another RSBN entries, but those starting with 11.... don't work, those starting with 8 work (for example 810 for channel 10)

Thanks

Ok, now I see my error, I copied frequencies from another RSBN entries, but those starting with 11.... don't work, those starting with 8 work (for example 810 for channel 10)

 

Thanks

It seems there are "frequency range" higer than 800 mhz that must be in corellation with the channel number. So if 8XX is frequency that used, than XX will be channel number. Download my mod, open it with Notepad++ and compare with original file, or witn Caucasus map Beacons.lua file. If you will closely look in diferences and read the comments that started from '--' you will understand the method used. Note that ED used on Caucaus map two different types of beacons realisation, its has different code structure, in other side, Nevada map use only second, new type. Again, read the comments in file carefully. If you not familiar with russian laguage and Google translator give poor result, PM me and I send you translation to English as soon as I have possibility to do that. Cheers )

I was able to succesfully add RSBN station to Gelendzhik using this code added to the airdrome = {} section.

 

{

type = BEACON_TYPE_RSBN,

callsign = "GL",

frequency = 815000000.0,-- channel 15

channel = 15,

position = coordinates("44'34'11N 38'00'32E 40"),

}

 

I used the coordinates from the NDB. It also appears in mission editor now and even passes integrity check.

 

Don't forget to use comma after } of the previous beacon under airdrome = {}.

 

 

I think this method should work also for PRMG, I will try it tonight.

You must add heading and elevation above sea level for PRMG localiser and glideslope, you can got elevation from ME and heading from ILS beacon if it exist on runway. Also, for PRMG localiser offset from runvay end needed too. Look at my realisation - for example, Groom Lake AFB :

chartOffsetX = 4269.000000; --- offset

position = { -286660.593750, 1357.831973, -87720.343750 }; -- elevation is 2nd param (1357.831973)

You sir, are a Steely eyed missile man!

 

 

Rep inbound!

 

 

Your mod is perfect!

 

 

ED should ask you to do ALL the runways in the NTTR and ALL the runways in the 1.5 Caucuses map! And slip you some cash as well!

 

 

Then we can fly the L39 everywhere with full navigation!

 

 

Thank you for this mod.

 

 

Best regards

David

Thank you, David.

As soon as I am can find a free time, I will continue this work in Nevada first, due to next changes in Caucasus map in 2.5, I am dotn see a reason to do something there until 2.5 will be released, because there's no guarantee that beacons will stays unchanged by ED. Main principle of good coding is - DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself)

Cheers)