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2 months since TGP release and today's OB was...


Hawkeye_UK

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Disappointing.

 

Anybody else feel that the Viper release has really hampered F18 development despite ED saying it wouldn't earlier in the summer ? I know it got briefly acknowledged 2 weeks ago that they had to pull resource over but surely the priority should be on an existing product not rushing new ones out the door at the expense of existing projects that are already customer facing. It's been 2 months since the lightening pod was released and with the exception of a very limited Harpoon and a few fixes its difficult to see 8 weeks of coding in today's OB unless we are due a huge release in the next OB that missed the cut? Oh i forgot we've been told the walleye is coming, which in fairness hasn't much relevance in today's MP environment, i'd say the most important is TWS at present.

 

Anybody else concerned that things are sliding and ED concentrating on new modules/cashflow whilst older modules get slowed down. It amazes me even on the loading screen how many of the modules still have EA or beta years after release. Reference the hornet I mean were do we start, TWS, Ground Radar, Flight Model broken allowing the jet to pull 30g, SLAM-ER, Mark points in HSI, Data cartridge, TGP pod that actually shows its position in the HUD (note the viper has this on release) to name a few and no real milestone timeline that has been communicated to the customers. When was Wag's last F18 video, Harpoon 7 weeks ago.

 

The Multiplayer code / CA and various issues that have been reported - enough said.

 

ED not catering for VR in Combined Arms which is vital for some servers. How years later we still haven't fixed the simple view bind's that go in opposite directions amazes me given how many of us now play solely in VR. I know VR is listed as not supported however common guys, move where the customer base and technology is going.

 

Don't get me wrong i'm a huge DCS fan however i do think detailed communication is sometimes very, very poor and they get away with it because of our enthusiasm to the sector and a lack of a direct competitor. I mean how hard can it be to have a simple Gantt chart with the major release features along with an approximate timeline - it would stop disappointment and probably 15-20% of all forum posts with customers asking / chasing.

 

We are patient as a community - but i can sense a growing resentment in ED rushing out new products (with no IFF???) with so many ongoing projects / problems. I know many committed players that this time around didn't jump in on the Viper EA pre launch for this very reason out of principle.

 

Hoping we get a professional and detailed roadmap on the status of the Hornet in the near future. Given the community members i've spoken with recently its fair to say were not bothered about things taking time to develop if accurately released it's the poor communication of that information along with no approximation of timeline that causes disappointment / concern of direction.

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ED made two promises: 1) Viper development wouldn't affect the Hornet and 2) Viper releases early autumn. Guess something had to give. I totally understand being frustrated, I also can't wait until the Hornet reaches its full potential. I bet it's a struggle for ED. They want to give information out but they know if they don't come through they get pummeled in the forums. Personally I'm glad they prioritized release of the Viper as I get a shiny new toy today, but I certainly understand the desire to get a finished product.

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It looks to me like they are optimizing teams to roll out of the Viper and Hornet.

 

It make sense the base core system technology is the same and then create the system to then suit X aircraft. Where the Hornet is now, is at a good intersection for the Viper team I guess. To move these two cool modules forward the rest of the way.

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From a business stand point ED needs to do what IRacing did; yearly subscriptions so they have a constant revenue stream. I know some folks would have a fit about this but after the initial anger IRacing is thriving. This model would provide a constant revenue stream to ED, which would allow them to finish products before releasing another unfinished product.

 

Personally, I'd rather see this then what we have. The more update the more bugs. We are now seeing canopies open in mid flight while they haven't actually opened, ladders extended down, some players hearing trigger sounds while others do not...etc etc.

 
 

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If ED switches to subscriptions, what about 3rd parties? you will pay a monthly or yearly fee, then $80 for a module?

Sorry dude but i'm not that rich!

If ED wants a constant revenue, they should focus on Core only, and let the 3rd party focus on Modules, and get more 3rd parties, and money will follow, because DCS will be enven greater than it actually is.


Edited by icemaker
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From a business stand point ED needs to do what IRacing did; yearly subscriptions so they have a constant revenue stream. I know some folks would have a fit about this but after the initial anger IRacing is thriving. This model would provide a constant revenue stream to ED, which would allow them to finish products before releasing another unfinished product.

 

Personally, I'd rather see this then what we have. The more update the more bugs. We are now seeing canopies open in mid flight while they haven't actually opened, ladders extended down, some players hearing trigger sounds while others do not...etc etc.

 

 

 

I am a member of both aforementioned simulators. Enjoy both of them very very much. Both have their positives and negatives. I do not however, see how a monthly/yearly subscription would pan out in terms of DCS though. The single player side (compared to the "testing" option of the race simulator) would be a tricky slope to navigate. Also, the direct work that goes on with the racing simulator is more "hand to hand" with manufacturers and sponsors of racing series, and not sure how that might transfer to DCS. If there was a clearly paved plan for a switch - it might work. Might. Biggest hurdle would most likely be all the purchases that have/would have been made prior to the monthly/yearly subscription. Probably a legal nightmare to try and change the user(s) right to use those already purchased modules.

 

Would be an interesting proposal though.

 

 

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Don


Edited by Ziptie

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iRacing has to do maintenance on a massive competitive score board, DCS presumably shouldn't.

 

It's a matter of pricing, dividing product life by present purchase price isn't that difficult.

 

Success though, is driven by quality and productivity and has little to do with pricing as such. Success depends on accessible and enduring talent. In these days market place, only the driven, the best and fastest need apply.

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Hawkeye_UK, I totally agree with you.

I've bought the F-16 to support ED. In the end of the day they are pretty much the only company creating military sims and I want them to keep going.

With that said, - I'm very disappointed. As an F/A-18 costumer - there were no updates for weeks. And just as you've said - myself and the community don't necessary look for the "next toy" - AGM-62 or the Slam. Rather, we want the already WIP items to be finished - the markpoints for the HSI, TGP, autopilot, TWS and rest of the the A-A radar function...

 

Moreover, yesterdays F-16 release was disappointing. While the 3D model and the cockpit are really work of art - the avionics are not ready. The DED is almost empty, the radar don't work well, even the gun don't work (no tracer or aimpoint). There is still a LOT of work to be done on the Viper before it will be a solid module.

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From a business stand point ED needs to do what IRacing did; yearly subscriptions so they have a constant revenue stream.

 

Fully agree. This is the only option to have a cash flow that you can invest on a team in order to do bug-fixing and new improvment on existing models, while a separate team is working on new product

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Disappointing.

 

Anybody else feel that the Viper release has really hampered F18 development despite ED saying it wouldn't earlier in the summer ? I know it got briefly acknowledged 2 weeks ago that they had to pull resource over but surely the priority should be on an existing product not rushing new ones out the door at the expense of existing projects that are already customer facing. It's been 2 months since the lightening pod was released and with the exception of a very limited Harpoon and a few fixes its difficult to see 8 weeks of coding in today's OB unless we are due a huge release in the next OB that missed the cut? Oh i forgot we've been told the walleye is coming, which in fairness hasn't much relevance in today's MP environment, i'd say the most important is TWS at present.

 

Anybody else concerned that things are sliding and ED concentrating on new modules/cashflow whilst older modules get slowed down. It amazes me even on the loading screen how many of the modules still have EA or beta years after release. Reference the hornet I mean were do we start, TWS, Ground Radar, Flight Model broken allowing the jet to pull 30g, SLAM-ER, Mark points in HSI, Data cartridge, TGP pod that actually shows its position in the HUD (note the viper has this on release) to name a few and no real milestone timeline that has been communicated to the customers. When was Wag's last F18 video, Harpoon 7 weeks ago.

 

The Multiplayer code / CA and various issues that have been reported - enough said.

 

ED not catering for VR in Combined Arms which is vital for some servers. How years later we still haven't fixed the simple view bind's that go in opposite directions amazes me given how many of us now play solely in VR. I know VR is listed as not supported however common guys, move where the customer base and technology is going.

 

Don't get me wrong i'm a huge DCS fan however i do think detailed communication is sometimes very, very poor and they get away with it because of our enthusiasm to the sector and a lack of a direct competitor. I mean how hard can it be to have a simple Gantt chart with the major release features along with an approximate timeline - it would stop disappointment and probably 15-20% of all forum posts with customers asking / chasing.

 

We are patient as a community - but i can sense a growing resentment in ED rushing out new products (with no IFF???) with so many ongoing projects / problems. I know many committed players that this time around didn't jump in on the Viper EA pre launch for this very reason out of principle.

 

Hoping we get a professional and detailed roadmap on the status of the Hornet in the near future. Given the community members i've spoken with recently its fair to say were not bothered about things taking time to develop if accurately released it's the poor communication of that information along with no approximation of timeline that causes disappointment / concern of direction.

Totally disagree. Putting the Viper out was the most reasonable thing ED could have done, as the commonality in the code between the Viper and the Hornet is so big, so that they can now develop a lot of missing features and functions that apply to both aircraft like TWS and TGP functionality.

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Moreover, yesterdays F-16 release was disappointing. While the 3D model and the cockpit are really work of art - the avionics are not ready. The DED is almost empty, the radar don't work well, even the gun don't work (no tracer or aimpoint). There is still a LOT of work to be done on the Viper before it will be a solid module.

 

You know, you could load tracer ammo, instead of the standard loadout of SAPHEI w/o tracer... just a suggestion.

 

That said: I also disagree with the OP - while the Hornet development sure slowed down a bit, they announced that clearly and openly months ago, since we now have a lot of bigger, more complicated systems to toggle.

 

In the end we will benefit from the Viper in this regard, too, since a lot of development between those will go hand in hand. As announced, TWS will be in shortly, e.g., for both modules.

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... that they can now develop a lot of missing features and functions that apply to both aircraft like TWS and TGP functionality.

 

Sorry, but releasing the Viper is not necessary to develop missing systems in the Hornet - but you make it sound that way.

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You know, you could load tracer ammo, instead of the standard loadout of SAPHEI w/o tracer... just a suggestion.

 

That said: I also disagree with the OP - while the Hornet development sure slowed down a bit, they announced that clearly and openly months ago, since we now have a lot of bigger, more complicated systems to toggle.

 

In the end we will benefit from the Viper in this regard, too, since a lot of development between those will go hand in hand. As announced, TWS will be in shortly, e.g., for both modules.

 

Dude, the F-16 was released not as an EARLY ACCESS but an EARLY EARLY EARLY ACCESS at best. I don't even bother to post bug reports...

 

What they announced a few months ago was that they work on complex systems and therefore we should expect a slower rate of new feature addition. Does it mean it's an excuse not to fix bugs or polish existing features? Over the summer there was little progress on the Hornet. The TGP is an example of that. As a Hornet costumer - it make me a bit nervous. The focus can easily stay on the Viper for quite some time. It's not ready and the buyers will demand (rightfully so) progress. Progress = resources. Those resources will probably come on the expense of the Hornet.

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Dude, the F-16 was released not as an EARLY ACCESS but an EARLY EARLY EARLY ACCESS at best. I don't even bother to post bug reports...

 

What they announced a few months ago was that they work on complex systems and therefore we should expect a slower rate of new feature addition. Does it mean it's an excuse not to fix bugs or polish existing features? Over the summer there was little progress on the Hornet. The TGP is an example of that. As a Hornet costumer - it make me a bit nervous. The focus can easily stay on the Viper for quite some time. It's not ready and the buyers will demand (rightfully so) progress. Progress = resources. Those resources will probably come on the expense of the Hornet.

 

^^This

 

The new term now is “parallel development.” Does anybody really know what that means exactly? They now have a full plate of new bugs to sort out and new features to implement. I can’t help but view the release of the Viper as a new can of worms rather than a path to accelerated Hornet development. Until it has been proven otherwise I would expect a fair amount of cynicism from those who have patiently been waiting for the Hornet to reach completion.

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From a pure €'s cashflow perspective, the F-16C needed to get released. My ounce of opinion. Look at its pricepoint. The most expensive DCS module ever. Big price, quicker payback of investments. The potential buyers public is huge as the F-16C is hugely popular. ED can reap >=10years from the Viper. DCS: A-10C is nearly 10 years old now, and ED's probably still earning some €'s of it.

 

I havent bought it, for simple reason.. I'm having fun with the Harrier & Viggen.

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Two months from the release of TGP and basic things are still missing. The "Target Designation Cue" on "HUD" is still missing. This is very troublesome, as it is not known where TGP is directed at the moment.

ED can do what he thinks is right, but it should not be at the expense of other modules. I knew I would have to wait for the F-18, but it doesn't look encouraging.

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Dude, the F-16 was released not as an EARLY ACCESS but an EARLY EARLY EARLY ACCESS at best. I don't even bother to post bug reports...

 

Dude, for what has been released yesterday it is actually pretty fine.

 

What they announced a few months ago was that they work on complex systems and therefore we should expect a slower rate of new feature addition. Does it mean it's an excuse not to fix bugs or polish existing features? Over the summer there was little progress on the Hornet. The TGP is an example of that. As a Hornet costumer - it make me a bit nervous. The focus can easily stay on the Viper for quite some time. It's not ready and the buyers will demand (rightfully so) progress. Progress = resources. Those resources will probably come on the expense of the Hornet.

 

Over the summer there has been no update where the Hornet DIDN'T get new features or bugs fixed. Probably not as much as you would like and maybe not the bugs you deem important, but stating otherwise is factually incorrect.

 

As a Hornet customer, I'm 100% chill with that. They never promised a date for the module to be finished, and if EA takes 3 years I'm fine with that. YMMV.

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You know, you could load tracer ammo, instead of the standard loadout of SAPHEI w/o tracer... just a suggestion.

 

That said: I also disagree with the OP - while the Hornet development sure slowed down a bit, they announced that clearly and openly months ago, since we now have a lot of bigger, more complicated systems to toggle.

 

In the end we will benefit from the Viper in this regard, too, since a lot of development between those will go hand in hand. As announced, TWS will be in shortly, e.g., for both modules.

 

Then the SAPHEI is magic because everyone else but the viper pilot could see the tracers :joystick:

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Magic ammo best ammo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Look at my signature. F-16 is my favorite module but I have not purchased it for simple reasons.

 

  • There are modules that needs to be updated from years back
  • No ground radar for hornet and no TWS for air to air. No news related to these features.
  • TGP is hmmm
  • I don't know if they will add any campaign. Well there is mini campaign but it was just collection of already added missions.
  • High price and less contents. Look at the past modules a-10c, ka-50 multiple campaigns tons of missions etc.

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Saw a massive amount of F16 on the servers yesterday, ED made quite the bundle.

Many BMS players no doubt.

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Agreed with OP.

 

There has been a distinct slowdown on the Hornet, caused by the Viper and more complex systems.

 

I am angry that the viper has released with a better a TGP than the Hornet has NOW and we waited for a year and a half.

 

The viper has tws like SAM mode - Hornet doesn’t.

 

Ed has taken advantage of people’s willingness to accept the indefensible, and I too sense a sea change with many people not buying the Viper (when it would have been an instability) purely out of principle.

 

Ed need to up their game in setting out a clear roadmap with system order for each module, commit to a time period of EA prior to gold so customers have the facts before they order, set out redlines for systems prior to ea status (to prevent iff etc), and finally commit to never reducing team focus on one ea module purely to hit a ‘self imposed deadline’ to get another one to ea.

 

I await with interest to see if ED can learn the lessons they NEEDED to learn from this debacle.


Edited by Arctander
Typo
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If ED switches to subscriptions, what about 3rd parties? you will pay a monthly or yearly fee, then $80 for a module?

Sorry dude but i'm not that rich!

If ED wants a constant revenue, they should focus on Core only, and let the 3rd party focus on Modules, and get more 3rd parties, and money will follow, because DCS will be enven greater than it actually is.

 

Whether you're rich or not is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is finding a business model that allows a satisfactory revenue stream while providing completed products. Many other developers have gone this way; IRacing, Photoshop etc. Pricing would change as well. I don't think you'd be paying $80 for a module.

 

If you're not rich then you don't play. You're not "entitled" to any product that's sold. If you were I'd have a Lamborghini setting in my driveway.

 

I'm not saying I'm happy with it as a consumer, but from a common sense business stand point it is an option that could ensure longevity of this market.

 
 

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I'd happily pay a monthly/yearly subscription if it meant more regular updates to the core game and finishing modules faster before starting the next EA project. Ed would have a more steady stream of income and would no longer need to rely on the mass income from the *next* EA project. They'd be able to make a more polished game without having to push EA projects long before they're really ready.

 

The Hornet being in EA for over a year and the Viper coming out with little, but highly sought after features we need (pod indication in HUD and slave to wp, proper CM numbers, proper gun ammo selection) is pretty painful for us Hornet pilots. I can only hope that the Hornet gets these updates in the next OB patch, you know since the Viper has them and they are supposed to help each other right?

 

Edit, if a straight subscription based model wouldn't work, how about a premium subscription on top of the base free2play model? Premium subscribers get access to Open Beta, F2P people can still play the release branch.


Edited by gekoiq
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Saw a massive amount of F16 on the servers yesterday, ED made quite the bundle.

Many BMS players no doubt.

 

I think ED were expecting the F16 to be quite the windfall as it is a universally loved jet. That a few days before EA pre-order ended, and with the level of angst on hoggit due to taking resource away from the F18 - that Nick Grey came out and commented to try and smooth the ruffled feathers gives me the impression that the sales they expected to make just haven't materialised and they were in damage control mode.

 

So while I'm not surprised the servers were full of F16s - I don't see that as indicative of a 'successful' pre-order sales volume.

 

I will be watching with interest to see if ED will have taken the learnings from this, and make a good faith effort to react to the customer pressures (in terms of communication, completion of EA products in a good time, roadmaps, dealing with their customers fairly, and fixing core issues in the sim) to see if I will ever open my wallet to them again.

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