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Old 11-11-2019, 12:53 AM   #31
Wmacky
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@sk000tch - Yeah I've seen video of pilots pulling real G's and no, I have no desire for that. I'm not even in good enough shape to even survive that!


Again, I believe what we really want are G- force cues, so we can tell what the aircraft is doing. (Without all the strains, and grunts!) I'd love to see a community project, much like the SFX motion project for this solution. We just need to figure the most reasonable solution, and then one of the very smart forum members that I know we have here to map out the way forward for the rest! I'm still interested in how G force cues can be conveyed using a tactile system, perhaps even more advanced than the jet seat if needed?


I currently have a motion cockpit, realistic flight controls, surround sound, VR visuals, and tactile, I just to figure out G force cues for full immersion!

Last edited by Wmacky; 11-11-2019 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 11-11-2019, 01:31 AM   #32
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Geeze man that's a lot of stuff. Honestly outside of training purposes this is the first sim i've ever played, and I got it maybe a year ago? I've bought a lot of hotas but that is more out of frustration and not liking how they feel.

How does the motion work with VR? doesn't the motion make your head move around within the cockpit?

Re your point - that's what I was basically saying too. I am a good stick IRL, can instruct in anything from a prop single to jets multis, with wheels or floats, wings or rotors, even several things without a motor for that matter... but as a virtual pilot my altitude is all over the place, as is my airspeed in BFM.... i constantly fight oscillations refueling, im always fuciing blind. It's a mess lol. I'm convinced it's because I am missing the feel of my butt in the seat, so I am 100% with you.

I was more just following up on the side topic from a few pages back - conversation has moved on but I don't check this forums everyday or anything so... anyway, you get the point
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by LASooner View Post
I would think you couldn't use any inside out tracking VR headset with a motion base, it would register the motion of the base as you moving your head. You'd need a system that use external trackers and they would have to also be mounted to the base.

Has anyone experimented with this?
My rift sensors are mounted outside the plattform. This works very good. For example when accelerating i sink into the backflaps perhaps 2 cm. So my head moves backwards in the Cockpit. When pulling gs i sink into the bottom flaps so my head goes Down relative to the Cockpit 2 cm. All movements feel natural and add to the immersion.
But on a big 6 dof platform i think the movement is too much to place the sensors outside the platform.
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Old 11-11-2019, 08:13 AM   #34
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Do you think pilots base their maneuvers on feelings? if they did not see the horizon and had no instruments and relied on their sensations they would be almost dead
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:47 AM   #35
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Do you think pilots base their maneuvers on feelings?
Yes and no...
When flying on instruments you must disregard your vestibular system and rely on instruments as your senses can play tricks on your mind.
But when maneuvering visually, and flying close to the performance limits of the aircraft, you do rely on physical feedback from the aircraft. Pulling G or buffeting close to a stall, for instance. These are factors that are largely missing in flightsims.
I make my living as a commercial airline pilot and I have an aerobatic license.
As a commercial pilot I have to practice and check my skills twice a year in full size full motion flightsimulators. Even these airliner simulators have motion that simulates acceleration, deceleration and G forces to a certain degree. They won’t throw me up-side-down or anything, but the motion really adds to the feeling of beeing there.
So, you don’t need full on 100% realistic force feedback and 360° motion to trick your brain into believing you are flying.
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Old 11-11-2019, 01:24 PM   #36
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I'm a hanglider Pilot and use a vario only to center thermals better. For me flying is a hobby which is all about sensing the wind, the temperature of the wind, the clouds, the turbulences, the speed, the g-forces .... I have a few hours in aerobatic planes as a passenger and had the chance to try some loops, turns,rolls and snap rolls myself, so i know how it feels to fly them. As a passenger i had to withstand several negative loops too and i therefore know that gforces are not a pleasure in all cases. I use dcs mainly to get this feeling of flight because the flight modell is pretty good. But of course it is mainly my imagination which is triggered by some Motion cues and the Main thing is happening in my brain. In my brain something magical happens when doing touch and goes in a p51 or aerobatics in a yak and thats why i invested a lot of time in my g-seat. I would prefer doing aerobatics in a real yak 52 but this is simply too expensive for me. I have almost the same fun flying dcs with Motion. What i want to say is, i know that sim flying has different aspects for each person. Sim flying is not real flying and everybody should do with a flight sim what makes him happy.

Unfortunately motion is like vr in one aspect. It is really difficult to Transport how it is by a video or description. And more, not each Person has the same feelings when experiencing it.

For flying i would prefer a gseat over a platform, because you feel the simulated gforces as long as they are there. If you pull some g's in a Plattform it moves 2 cm deeper and stays there until you release the stick. Then it goes 2cm back to neutral. The gseat squeezes you until you release the stick - so you feel it the whole time. The combination of both is very good. The Plattform works mainly for your sense of Balance while the gseat gives you the simulated forces.

I would really appreciate it if you get something going to construct like andres jetseat as a jacket or so. It would bring more people into Motion and would leaď to better and cheaper Motion experiences. Combined with vr this could bring more people into the sim flying Hobby which would be good for all sim flying enthusiasts.
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:41 PM   #37
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Do you think pilots base their maneuvers on feelings? if they did not see the horizon and had no instruments and relied on their sensations they would be almost dead
Today's lesson is to make sure you know what you're talking about, else you might sound like a jerk. I'm guessing a collective 5-10,000 flight hours experience, pilots w/ at least two type quals for planes modelled in DCS, two acrobatic pilots/instructors/airshow performers, and another who flies with no instruments at all - disagree with your sentiment. I used to put sticky notes over primary instruments to force student pilots to keep their heads up looking outside and not down at instruments. Stick and rudder skills are earned with your head up, not down. Lose sight lose the fight kid...

With that out of the way, as to the topic at hand - As I've thought about this more I think that addressing the 'missing sensor' is feasible. I am less concerned with a physical representation of Gs in any realistic sense, but rather finding a substitute for the vestibular and other combined senses. I forget the technical term here, but it basically refers to your skin, muscles, etc., that feel changes in pressure of straps, or the classic example of how you can feel an uncoordinated turn. I think this part is solveable with something like the jetseat. Fundamentally its just pressure being applied to your body at different points in the seat.

The inner ear is trickier. Again, i forget the specifics but there's plenty of literature for those of you who are really trying to solve the problem, but the inner ear has (3?) canals, again, not a flight surgeon, but there's little hairs in each with fluid that sense acceleration. They're oriented along different axis to detect movement. They're also not infallible. Pilots lose spatial orientation if IFR conditions all the time, but when combined with the visual cues they work very well. I think this is what makes ppl get VR sickness btw. My point though is that if VR makes you sick because you are seeing motion that the inner ear isn't detecting, it stands to reason that some sense of motion, obviously to a much lesser degree than in a fighter jet, could be applied to supplement what we're seeing in a headset.

This might be one of those things that takes some more evolution in hardware but intuitively it seems possible?

This is where my expertise ends unfortunately. I understand vestibular illusions from a practical standpoint, but certainly not the medical aspect nor would I begin to know how to manipulate them. For someone smarter than me, however, like I said, there's a ton of studies on it. Just google spatial disorientation vestibular canals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryharry View Post
I'm a hanglider Pilot and use a vario only to center thermals better. For me flying is a hobby which is all about sensing the wind, the temperature of the wind, the clouds, the turbulences, the speed, the g-forces .... I have a few hours in aerobatic planes as a passenger and had the chance to try some loops, turns,rolls and snap rolls myself, so i know how it feels to fly them. As a passenger i had to withstand several negative loops too and i therefore know that gforces are not a pleasure in all cases. I use dcs mainly to get this feeling of flight because the flight modell is pretty good. But of course it is mainly my imagination which is triggered by some Motion cues and the Main thing is happening in my brain. In my brain something magical happens when doing touch and goes in a p51 or aerobatics in a yak and thats why i invested a lot of time in my g-seat. I would prefer doing aerobatics in a real yak 52 but this is simply too expensive for me. I have almost the same fun flying dcs with Motion. What i want to say is, i know that sim flying has different aspects for each person. Sim flying is not real flying and everybody should do with a flight sim what makes him happy.
HarryHarry - I'd never though of the sensors on the motion rig, that's a cool idea. I'm trying to figure out what to do for a simpit now, if you have some pics or knowledge to share that would be helpful I"d appreciate it. I am new to sims generally but having a ton of fun flying with RL buddies. Btw, its been years but I enjoy hang gliders as well. I got tired of needing a truck with a rack plus wingsuits hit the scene around the same time so I sold mine.

Anyway, you mentioned something near and dear to my heart. Stay away from Yaks.

They have the same M14P as my Sukhoi. Its a glorious engine. 620 C.I. bullet proof 9-cylinder supercharged radial,,, BUT, they burn ~2 quarts of oil/hr, 30-35 gal gas/hr, have a TBO of 750 hours, and parts have become very difficult to obtain. I'll save the details, but largely due to the red bull series some shops started producing modifications that replaced a number of the problematic or quirky parts, and upped the power to around 450HP on a 91/115 blend. But it's expensive upgrade, and expensive fuel. I love the engine, aside from a merlin (I qual'd in TF-51 maybe 15 years back, weekend warrior style), it is my favorite power plant i've flown. She is absolute beast, but what was a relatively cheap plane at the time to buy turned into a huge expense. My co-owner on it was fresh on 737s at the time (ex-f15c pilot and DCS player ironically), had only been out a few years and it hurt him even worse.

That said, guys don't start out racing F1, I see citabrias and decathlons for sale for less than a used Honda all the time. It's never a cheap hobby, and, as you said, people should do what they want. But if its something you dream about don't give up so easy - it may be more attainable than you think.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:38 AM   #38
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Ok serious post this time not just busting the "omg pilots have instruments dumbass" kid's balls...

I did some research following my previous post, and we are certainly not the first to contemplate this. Several studies, thesis papers with prototype devices, and dozens – hundreds actually – of studies, papers and other research contemplate the issue, from the perspective of flight specific technology to improving VR experience.

As I was lazy and didn't look up terminology I should define some terms up front. Pilot’s spatial awareness is derived from their senses. This is an obvious point, but worth categorizing, and discussing separately. Foremost among these is vision - the brain interprets what the eyes see, such as the horizon. Less important for spatial awareness is aural inputs, but certainly the changing pitch of air noise as a plane accelerates or decelerates, or the unusual sound when a nosewheel fails to extend are important.

The two we are concerned with in this thread are the vestibular organs in the ear, which I discussed before, and proprioceptive, which I could not recall the name of. Vestibular again is responsible for sensing motion, balance and equilibrium, and are responsible for VR sickness (and simulator sickness). The other I could not recall is proprioceptive, which is just a big word for nerves in skin, muscles, tendons and joints. This is not just the feeling of G forces pulling you into the seat but also changing pressure points on you butt and hips in an uncoordinated turn – the reason good rudder work is so difficult in sims.

Fortunately, it’s not a perfect system. It’s easy to trick in flight, usually manifests as a feeling of climbing or descending in level flight, or a feeling that a plane is banked when its not after a quick correction to level flight after a very gradual entry. Pilots here have heard graveyard spiral, or coriolis. These are somatic illusions, which the FAA discusses in this well illustrated publication here.

I see these as distinct issues. The proprioceptive sensors are critical to good stick & rudder pilots. Probably most important is vision -- obviously critical for good pilots (though less so these days), but this is also the seat of the pants flying that I was complaining about lacking. I think here, evolution and continued improvement of jetseat, or some of the other topics discussed in this thread like pulling straps and such should be able to partially, enough to improve quality of experience and flying, address the issue. The FAA produced a corny video explaining the topic, and for those who really enjoy the ground school flashback they made a video on special disorientation as well

The vestibular is a different animal, but it is a problem that a lot of research is going toward. It will take someone much smarter than me, but Galvanic vestibular stimulation (GVS) seems particularly promising for flight sims. GVS is the transcutaneous delivery of electric currents to the vestibular afferents with both semicircular canals and otolith organs. It’s a complex topic but potential solutions, or at least improvements, don’t necessarily have to be. The advantage is that GVS is a simple and safe, can be as simple as electrodes placed on the mastoid bones behind each ear. The resulting effect is that wearers feel a pull or sway towards the positive electrode and thus the system affects one’s sense of balance in that direction.

A Mr. Erik Krivorukov from Tallinn University did his thesis on GVS in VR. Though there’s a lot of material out there, I’m including this because its loaded with citations for further reading and includes a thorough description of the Arduino based device he built, even his code. Mr. Krivorukov's thesis: Control of Balance in Virtual Reality Interactions
with a Galvanic Vestibular Stimulation


The famous MIT Media lab has been working on this as well. This is an exciting article in the sense that it really bodes well for the future of our hobby. Like the thesis above, they created a device to provide DVS. They do not detail it's design as thoroughly, but its increased sophistication produced more impressive results results. Interestingly, they tested it in a VR roller coaster app using a Vive, and note that because a coaster experiences G forces in a single axis only two electrodes are required. A third could be included to account for forward acceleration, but otherwise a flight sim doesn’t require lateral. The results were impressive, overwhelmingly testers preferred the experience with the GVS over vanilla VR, reproting increased immersion, a feeling of "being there," and less VR sickness. An extended abstract of Misha Sra, Abhinandan Jain, and Pattie Maes 2019 Adding Proprioceptive Feedback to Virtual Reality Experiences Using Galvanic Vestibular Stimulation

Given the simplicity of the device its pretty promising, and that each technology tends to be complimentary with the others – such that a jetseat type or other haptic device, force feedback sticks, continued evolution of VR tech – in a few years many of the shortcomings of simulators (in the sense of whether they accurately simulate flight) could be mitigated significantly or gone in some cases.

So there ya go Harry… you might need to increase the amperage a bit to simulate 9Gs, but perhaps you won’t need that Yak after all

Seems to me like we're going to need some volunteers...
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:08 AM   #39
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I meant
Under certain conditions it is not possible to understand if you are for example at 10 or 20 degrees of roll, especially if the roll starts slowly, I have never been able to distinguish a variation of this type. The ascents the descents, the same within a certain degree, if you begin the maneuver slowly, it is not easy to understand only from the physical sensation. We can understand our position with certainty when we are at; +/- 90 ° roll (1g) -180 roll (1g) +/- 90 pitch, these 100% in each situation (1g) guarantee correct sensations. For all the other sensations without horizon and instruments you can die, think about landing ...
And if you find any system with DCS that in VR can trick your mind into believing you're in there, let me know.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:22 PM   #40
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There is always a Motion cueing Software between the simulator and your Motion System so that you are free to decide in which direction you want to roll, pitch,...and so on depending on how much degrees of freedom your System has. We are sensing motion all a little bit different and its important that you create a Motion profile that suits exatly what your brain needs. This is a longer process, better measured in days than in minutes. ;-)
If you want to Simulator to feel like an aircraft then you aren't free to decide. We all feel the aircraft the same IRL and in the Sim, meaning real multi million dollar simulators. If you want it to just throw you around a bit then I guess you are correct it just won't feel like an aircraft.

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