Should radar lose lock/contacts when switching modes?

Hey guys,

In FC3, switching radar between scan and TWS modes, between BVR and dogfight modes, between the dogfight modes themselves (vertical to boresight to HMD, etc.) and switching aircraft master modes (BVR to NAV, etc.) will cause radar to automatically drop the lock on the enemy, as well as drop all contacts.

What do you guys think, would it be better or more realistic if locks and contacts were kept? Let's say you're approaching bandids and naturally switch from BVR to dogfight mode. Should radar drop the lock? Anyone knows how this works on the real aircraft?

(I know FC3 isn't supposed to be highly realistic, but this is more of a philosophic question)

Regards

It is very annoying and I hardly believe this is the case irl but I have no idea.

The only reason to switch to AACQ is if you don't have your target locked already, or are trying to change targets visually. You gain nothing from switching from a pre-existing STT lock, and I believe it is correct that the RADAR would drop its target if you enter one of the AACQ modes.

Changing between NAV/BVR modes however should not dump your contacts, as you've noted, and it can indeed be problematic.

The only reason to switch to AACQ is if you don't have your target locked already, or are trying to change targets visually. You gain nothing from switching from a pre-existing STT lock, and I believe it is correct that the RADAR would drop its target if you enter one of the AACQ modes.

 

Changing between NAV/BVR modes however should not dump your contacts, as you've noted, and it can indeed be problematic.

The radar picture is also lost for a few seconds (until the next refresh cycle completes) when switching from RWS to TWS. Not sure if this is a bug or how it actually works in the Eagle? Either way, it's annoying

The real killer is that turning hot / cold almost always drops any and all TWS bugs you have because there is no TWS memory. This makes recommitting at close range on a guy who's chasing you ludicrously powerful and the only counters are going STT before it happens, using AAQ or FLOOD in some rare cases.

I also noticed sometimes AAQ can throw away the lock if you're trying to pull too much lead for a close SRM shot, not sure if this is realistic or not, but it's certainly annoying because in a lot of cases where if you're not far ahead of the cue the missile will never be able to turn enough. This doesn't happen too often though.

That "sounds" right...since we're changing what we're asking the RADAR to do, it would make sense that it needs to complete a cycle in order to display the new information.

Skimming the -34 I'm not finding any reference to whether the screen needs to refresh. Since the RADAR modes we have aren't totally 1:1 with the real thing, it's hard to say. :dunno:

The only reason to switch to AACQ is if you don't have your target locked already, or are trying to change targets visually.

Or if you want target to be reacquired quickly after ACM manouvers put him out of radar FOV... AACQ will automatically lock him as soon as he is in front of you again.

You gain nothing from switching from a pre-existing STT lock, and I believe it is correct that the RADAR would drop its target if you enter one of the AACQ modes.

That's precisely the point, you gain nothing from dropping the pre-existing lock... If you do want to drop it, there's already a button for it in your HOTAS, I'm not sure if the system would drop it due to switching modes alone...I might be wrong, but I suppose that if the pilot has a lock on the enemy in a combat situation, the system would do what it can to avoid losing it unless the pilot intentionally drops it.

For me the most annoying is when you have your hud on nav, you have targets locked in tws mode, when you get close you switch to BVR and the lock is dropped and radar mode back to narrow scan mode.

Considering that the radar operation we have is much different then what is the real thing, this looks more like a bug to me.

^^^ +1 ^^^

Or if you want target to be reacquired quickly after ACM manouvers put him out of radar FOV... AACQ will automatically lock him as soon as he is in front of you again.

Yep. Which falls under "you don't have your target locked already." ;)

I'd say this is pretty definitive, from the real manual:

In terms of LRS/TWS modes:

Contacts should not be dropped due to change in modes except where specifically stated (eg. going to STT)

Switching from LRS/TWS and back should not clear out contacts. Tracks should maintain whatever status they currently have (skin contact, half-track, full track - mostly N/A DCS)

Turning should slew contact positions on the LRS display smoothly.

TWS track update rate should match actual TWS antenna scan

TWS contacts should not be cleared when in TWS until the track times out, even if you move the scan zone off of those targets.

Similarly in LRS historical data should be cleared as per timeout (configured frame store), even if the scan zone is moved elsewhere.

AACQ modes have different rules, and typically re-selecting an AACQ mode may automatically reject the current target.

Hey guys,

 

In FC3, switching radar between scan and TWS modes, between BVR and dogfight modes, between the dogfight modes themselves (vertical to boresight to HMD, etc.) and switching aircraft master modes (BVR to NAV, etc.) will cause radar to automatically drop the lock on the enemy, as well as drop all contacts.

 

What do you guys think, would it be better or more realistic if locks and contacts were kept? Let's say you're approaching bandids and naturally switch from BVR to dogfight mode. Should radar drop the lock? Anyone knows how this works on the real aircraft?

 

(I know FC3 isn't supposed to be highly realistic, but this is more of a philosophic question)

 

Regards

I'd say this is pretty definitive, from the real manual:

Yes, looks pretty definitive. BTW, is that the F-15?

Though, if I got it right, it's still the pilot who drops the lock himself before selecting the Auto Aquisition, right? Not that it would make that much difference...

Yes, that's from the non-nuclear weapons delivery manual for the F-15C/D published on 3-15-81. From what I can tell it looks like in the real bird, if you are locked onto a target the AACQ switch will not function unless you drop an existing lock yourself.

I think that’s saying the operator needs to reject the designated contact before mode switching will be allowed. It’s not saying the track memory will be discarded when the mode is switched.

Yep that's how I interpret it. :thumbup:

published on 3-15-81.

Let me speculate a little: I guess that if the radar, from a pure machine point of view, is in the Auto Acquisition state, meaning it's waiting for a contact to appear in it's view, it naturally has no lock yet. But the radar obviously has a software commanding it, and I guess this software could in theory get in a mode where the pilot already commanded it into Auto Acquisition but it will not put the radar into that state before the lock is lost for some reason. So, in a general term, I speculate that it could be possible to get in an 'Auto Acquisition mode' without the radar being actually in the Auto Acquisition state yet, but it's obviously not the case in the 1981 F-15 system, as we saw from the manual, so DCS's depiction of the F-15 is actually coherent. I wonder how it's like in more modern aircraft or even modernized F-15's though.

Now regarding the transition between RWS and TWS modes and the transition between NAV and BVR modes, can we have hopes that these will be changed so they don't lose radar locks/pictures?

The radar in all FC3 aircraft is pretty much just a 'generic' radar model that was created when the sim was still called lomac.

I would not get any hopes up that there is going to be any changes in the code towards a more realistic radar/system model unless someone decides to make a fullblown model.This has been said many times in many a thread.

The radar in all FC3 aircraft is pretty much just a 'generic' radar model that was created when the sim was still called lomac.

I would not get any hopes up that there is going to be any changes in the code towards a more realistic radar/system model unless someone decides to make a fullblown model.This has been said many times in many a thread.

Hmm yes, but we're not really asking for a more realistic radar... I don't know if this change would be hard to do (I doubt it), but the gain in fluidity in air combat would be just great, you have to admit that...

The radar in all FC3 aircraft is pretty much just a 'generic' radar model that was created when the sim was still called lomac.

I would not get any hopes up that there is going to be any changes in the code towards a more realistic radar/system model unless someone decides to make a fullblown model.This has been said many times in many a thread.

Agreed. While it’s actually kind of fun to talk about how the AN/APG-63 should behave, the FC3 radar model seems to be a legacy item.

+1

Hmm yes, but we're not really asking for a more realistic radar... I don't know if this change would be hard to do (I doubt it), but the gain in fluidity in air combat would be just great, you have to admit that...

While I do agree that it would be a welcome fix, there has been many threads like this one over time.

From what I remember being said by ppl that should know; the code is old and the people that did the original code might or might not be working with ED anymore. That makes any changes very time consuming.

We have however seen small changes here and there, so who knows.