Training - Landing Difficult - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-07-2017, 03:07 PM   #1
johnnyrey
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6
Default Training - Landing Difficult

I'm having a lot of trouble with this, I never seem to get lined up with the runway correctly, and I'm a little unclear on what the tutorial is telling me in regards to the HSI.

Additionally, the nav wants me going at 230 near the runway which is very hard to maintain without just falling out of the sky.

Can anyone give me some tips?
johnnyrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2017, 03:36 PM   #2
Frostie
Veteran
 
Frostie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3,435
Default

Once lined up with HSI line up visually with the runway, flaps down, landing speed 260+, less than 320 depending on weight. No more than 5m/s sink rate.
You can keep your airbrake out to allow more speed control, slower acceleration.
Just practice coming in at 280-300 at 5 m/s decent to get a feel for the aircraft, providing you're not too heavy you can play around in that region with plenty of freedom. You can reduce sink rate just before touchdown by flaring, gently pulling the nose up at the last.
Frostie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2017, 01:45 AM   #3
DarkFire
Senior Member
 
DarkFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyrey View Post
I'm having a lot of trouble with this, I never seem to get lined up with the runway correctly, and I'm a little unclear on what the tutorial is telling me in regards to the HSI.

Additionally, the nav wants me going at 230 near the runway which is very hard to maintain without just falling out of the sky.

Can anyone give me some tips?
Be very careful about the indicated speed in ILS mode - it's usually wrong. Why? The real Su-27S requires a maximum landing weight of IIRC 23,000kg. This is very close to the empty weight - it assumes no weapons and very little (~10% +emergency reserve) fuel. A successful landing requires that you intercept the 3-degree glide slope at the correct range (15Km for most airfields) and at the indicated altitude. Real pilots will dump fuel if necessary to come below this maximum weight.

Once you're at the right place and the right altitude a successful landing then requires a 3-degree glide slope at a 5 m/s sink rate, to the point at which you flare and touch down. This notional landing does not specify your speed, so your speed will effectively be dictated by your weight. The heavier your aircraft, the faster you'll need to go to maintain the 3-degree glide slope and 5m/s sink rare. The lighter you are the slower you'll be going to maintain these conditions.
__________________
CM Storm case | i7 6700k @ 4GHz | MSI GTX1080 | 32GB Kingston Predator PC3000 RAM | SB ZXR sound | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung Evo 850 2TB | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM.
DarkFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2017, 12:25 PM   #4
DarkFire
Senior Member
 
DarkFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,636
Default

Wanted to add a few points:

1) Navigating back to your chosen airfield: when you chose "return" mode, the navigation system will not direct you back to the airfield but to the point at which you should intercept the glide slope. This assumes a straight-in approach and not a circuit approach.

2) This will be shown on your head-down display: you'll see a line connecting you to the start of the glide slope. The compass directions of runways are fairly accurately shown on the HDD, so you should aim to intercept the glide slope in a direction that's parallel to the direction of the runway shown on the display. If you do this you'll already be lined up with the runway direction when you intercept the start of the glide slope.

3) If you accurately intercept the start of the glide slope then the system should automatically change over to landing mode, at which point the system should display the director circles for the ILS system, as long as the airfield you're landing at is equipped with a Russian ILS system. Not all of them are.

4) If your airfield doesn't have an ILS system then maintain the 3-degree glide slope at a 5 m/s sink rate. You'll see that the runway threshold will stay roughly in the lower 1/3rd of your HUD. Pay attention to this HUD picture because once you get sufficiently used to it you won't need to be in 'landing' mode and you'll be able to land successfully by developing a feel for where the aircraft is actually going, despite the fact that the Su-27 doesn't have a flight path marker.

5) As Frostie said, aim to come over the runway threshold at anything between 280 - 300 Km/h. A gentle flare will see you touch down at somewhere between 240-270 Km/h which would be fast for a real Su-27 but perfectly fine in DCS.

6) Don't bother holding your nose in the air once you've touched down - aero-braking in the Su-27 isn't particularly effective, though you can do it if you want. For a shorter roll-out immediately but gently drop the nose and pop the chute. Once your speed is below ~150 Km/h you can help the chute by gently applying the brakes.

7) Don't taxi too fast, or you'll run the risk of popping your tyres. Though the minimum speed your HUD will show is 80 Km/h, try to taxi at under 40. You can switch to external F2 view to get an idea of what your actual speed is while taxiing. Slow down even more before going around any sharp corners.

Hope this helps, and happy landings!
__________________
CM Storm case | i7 6700k @ 4GHz | MSI GTX1080 | 32GB Kingston Predator PC3000 RAM | SB ZXR sound | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung Evo 850 2TB | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM.

Last edited by DarkFire; 07-09-2017 at 12:28 PM.
DarkFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2017, 12:37 PM   #5
DarkFire
Senior Member
 
DarkFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,636
Default

And finally, here are some very useful training videos on YouTube:

First, a final navigation & landing tutorial featuring the man himself (Wags):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z66upAiTm8M


Tubular Xcom has an excellent video showing how to do a non-ILS landing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BgPAvlOwpQ&t=3s


Finally, IronHand has a very good video on dead-stick landings. You should definitely check out his other videos on the Su-27.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JguGW04bcU
__________________
CM Storm case | i7 6700k @ 4GHz | MSI GTX1080 | 32GB Kingston Predator PC3000 RAM | SB ZXR sound | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung Evo 850 2TB | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM.
DarkFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2017, 07:49 PM   #6
Ironhand
Veteran
 
Ironhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 3,521
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkFire View Post
...

3) If you accurately intercept the start of the glide slope then the system should automatically change over to landing mode, at which point the system should display the director circles for the ILS system, as long as the airfield you're landing at is equipped with a Russian ILS system. Not all of them are.

...
Just jumping in to mention that you will get those two circles (the larger director circle and the smaller ILS deviation mark circle) well before the ILS bars on the HSI become active. They won't come into play until you are 8 km from touchdown.
__________________
http://rsoro.host22.com/Flankertraining_Images/Flankertraining_Banner-1a.jpg

Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 16GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0.
Ironhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2017, 05:46 PM   #7
GGTharos
Veteran
 
GGTharos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,508
Default

Although these are N/A DCS:

1) Aerobraking is used to save tyre life, therefore use it. It's effective on a lot of aircraft, including the Su-27. 'Not very effective' is very subjective as the purpose of aerobraking is not a short roll-out. Learning to do it right first is better than exercising some crutch option. Aim right and land right first, then think about alternate landings (ie very heavy, min ground roll, etc).

2) Don't use the chute. Chutes foul the runway if you dump them there; thus they are dumped in a particular airfield area, then reloaded into the aircraft. This can easily prevent (safe) high density landings especially if dumping chutes on the runway ... although with a straight-in, you're certainly not looking for quick landings.

3) For the glory of 'doing it right'

Quote:
6) Don't bother holding your nose in the air once you've touched down - aero-braking in the Su-27 isn't particularly effective, though you can do it if you want. For a shorter roll-out immediately but gently drop the nose and pop the chute. Once your speed is below ~150 Km/h you can help the chute by gently applying the brakes.
__________________

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump
I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
GGTharos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2017, 06:43 PM   #8
WindyTX
Member
 
WindyTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 451
Default

Aerobraking generally saves brake life most wear on the tyre happens on spin up on landing. At least thats the case as long as you are not locking the brakes up which you shouldnt be.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
__________________
I7 3930 4.2GHz ( Hyperthreading Off), GTX1080, 16 GB ddr3
Hotas Warthog Saiteck Combat Pedals HTC Vive, Oculus CV1.

GTX 1080 Has its uses
WindyTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2017, 07:39 PM   #9
DarkFire
Senior Member
 
DarkFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGTharos View Post
Although these are N/A DCS:

1) Aerobraking is used to save tyre life, therefore use it. It's effective on a lot of aircraft, including the Su-27. 'Not very effective' is very subjective as the purpose of aerobraking is not a short roll-out. Learning to do it right first is better than exercising some crutch option. Aim right and land right first, then think about alternate landings (ie very heavy, min ground roll, etc).

2) Don't use the chute. Chutes foul the runway if you dump them there; thus they are dumped in a particular airfield area, then reloaded into the aircraft. This can easily prevent (safe) high density landings especially if dumping chutes on the runway ... although with a straight-in, you're certainly not looking for quick landings.

3) For the glory of 'doing it right'
All true! If I'm just flying around on the VA server, I actually feel guilty if I dump my chute on the runway as I know that in reality everyone else landing would be delayed by the idiot who just caused an obstruction that some poor ground crew member is now going to have to run out and retrieve

I vaguely remember reading the real life landing speed restrictions for the Su-27. I think it was something quite complicated like 'maximum landing speed is 250 Km/h (I made that up as an example) so long as only 5% of total landings are conducted at that speed'.

I also wonder how the Russian AF deals with the issue of hot brake disks, or whether the Su-27 is designed so that this isn't a problem, particularly as the real aircraft has an automatic braking system and in reality the only time the chute is actually used is in conditions where the surface traction of the runway is impaired by e.g. ice. IIRC the F-15 has quite stringent speed restrictions on when the brakes can be used to avoid bursting tyres killing members of the ground crews. I wonder if the Su-27 has those too.
__________________
CM Storm case | i7 6700k @ 4GHz | MSI GTX1080 | 32GB Kingston Predator PC3000 RAM | SB ZXR sound | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung Evo 850 2TB | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM.
DarkFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2017, 11:02 PM   #10
GGTharos
Veteran
 
GGTharos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 29,508
Default

There's no such thing as 'not a problem' when it comes to hot brakes - it's all about how much energy is absorbed.

WindyTX is right, it's about the brakes, not tyre wear: I figure any aircraft which is suspected of having hot brakes would be parked well away from other aircraft and people for an hour or so.

Speed limits are there to prevent this, but you're not going to be worrying about those if you have to perform a minimum ground-roll landing for example. Aerobraking is also one way of not using the brakes.
__________________

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump
I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
GGTharos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:54 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.