CASE 3 CV-1 Approach chart

"hornet tanker 3.5" is fuel to tank (similar to bingo quantities for diversion), not tanker angels!:lol:

"hornet tanker 3.5" is fuel to tank (similar to bingo quantities for diversion), not tanker angels!:lol:

 

Thanx

 

and just to be clear,

is the hornet tanker a (hornet) F-18?

I have seen in photos

 

 

Rhino Tank 4.1

Hornet Tank 3.5

Prowler Tank 4.6

 

 

Last thing I read is "config change at 10nm, no later than 8nm complete" applying to jet/turboprop. 1999 F-14 era. Turboprop were given an alternate last chance configuration change by 6nm (vice jet's 8nm but both were targeted at 10nm). Helicopter 3nm.

 

Offset correction was commenced at 20 miles:

1. "gradual" when within 10 degrees alignment

2. 30 degrees (assume means heading crossing angle) outside 10 degrees alignment

3. 12 DME arc if not established (think established means within +- some dots) by 12 DME

 

The closest marshal fix is 21 DME so the transition can happen as early as one mile passing the fix inbound. That gives 8 DME to drift in which should handle ~11 degrees of radial crossing.

 

Case 3 can have marshal on any bearing or overhead.

 

OK I read the 2009 and they moved the config point to 8nm for jet/turbo. Helo still at 3. There was no "no later than" distance but it's a good assumption that it is the same 2nm beyond targeted config change distance since it was that way before.

Any CASE 2 chart around there?

CASE II is a mix of CASE I for the landing pattern and CASE III for the Marshal Holding.

CNATRA P-816, page 2-19

 

Case II recoveries will be used when weather conditions are such that a flight may encounter IMC during the descent to the VFR pattern. The minimum weather requirements are 1,000 feet ceiling and 5 NM visibility. During Case II recoveries, formation flights are limited to two aircraft. Formations larger than two aircraft will have to be separated into smaller flights.

 

During Case II, Case III procedures are used outside 10 NM and Case I procedures are used inside 10 NM, or after reporting “see you.” This approach will be flown until the ship is in sight, at which point, the flight will contact tower and proceed inbound as if Case I. If the flight does not see the ship by 5 NM, the aircraft will be vectored into the bolter/waveoff pattern and instructions will be given for a Case III recovery.

I know that, thanks. Just asking if someone is going to make a chart about it.

Since the Case III approach is flown at 250kts, does the case II maintain 250 into the break rather than the 350kts for a case I recovery?

Thanx

 

and just to be clear,

is the hornet tanker a (hornet) F-18?

I have seen in photos

 

 

Rhino Tank 4.1

Hornet Tank 3.5

Prowler Tank 4.6

 

 

It means, that if you are in a Hornet, you will be expected to leave the patern, to go to the tanker, when your fuel state reaches 3.5klb (3500 pounds)

Thank you,

very much......

 

 

Your awesome

is the hornet tanker a (hornet) F-18?

 

Legacy Hornet never got the buddy store AFAIK. So most likely a Viking in the old times or a Rhino nowadays would be serving as recovery tanker.

One more thing I missed. This chart shows the CASE III Marshal stacks flown on a radial established in relation to the final bearing (angled deck). The P-816 says the Marshal is established in relation to the BRC.

One more thing I missed. This chart shows the CASE III Marshal stacks flown on a radial established in relation to the final bearing (angled deck). The P-816 says the Marshal is established in relation to the BRC.

 

Case 1 they will give you BRC, CASE III they give you Expected final bearing?

 

Everything I have read is final bearing (FB). Reading an old CV-NATOPS-21oct99

 

Same as all the ATC calls, seen listed on Kola360 chart.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by David OC

P-816 published 28JAN 2014, page 2-19:

 

If Marshal directs a Case II recovery, the flight will proceed to Case II/III marshal pattern holding fix. Ideally, the holding fix will be on the 180 radial relative to BRC. Weather and airspace considerations may not allow for this. Generally, the holding radial will be within 30 degrees of the 180 radial. Aircraft will hold on the assigned radial at a distance equal to 1 NM for every 1,000 feet of altitude plus 15.

The pilot sketch in Wags video is also FB?

 

15 to 30 off final bearing?

 

 

That is strange:

P-816 page 47

 

Holding. The Case III marshal holding pattern is identical to Case II. During Case III recoveries, aircraft will commence from the Marshal stack and fly the CV-1 Approach.

 

Stack can be on BRC if set?

Approach on FB?

 

CV-1 Approach chart, on page 48 and says courses are relative to FB. May be it's able to change depending? No idea....:)

 

.

P-816 published 28JAN 2014, page 2-19:

That's CASE II.

Stack can be on BRC if set?

Approach on FB?

 

CV-1 Approach chart, on page 48 and says courses are relative to FB. May be it's able to change depending? No idea....:)

 

 

The approach course is the direction you need for landing (CASE II -> BRC for the Initial; CASE III-> CV1 with FB). The Marshal is relative to that course.

final bearing (FB) The magnetic bearing assigned by CATCC for final approach. It is an extension of the landing area centerline.

 

base recovery course (BRC) The ship’s magnetic heading during flight operations.

 

"The primary TACAN marshal fix is the 180 radial relative to the expected final bearing"

 

What that means is that if CV heading is 090 then FB is 081. The TACAN approach is along the 261 radial. The CV-1 chart reflects this. Further given ship motion and headwind the airplane heading to track this radial inbound will be right of the direct bearing to TACAN.

 

Case II operations must therefore transition (at 10nm) between the FB-based TACAN approach to the visual BRC-based landing circuit involving a right turn of nominally 9 degrees.

 

Contrary to NAVAIR 00-80T-105, CNATRA P-816 declares that Case III marshal occurs on the 180 radial relative to BRC. This discrepancy is either an error or a deliberate difference. This may explain the "marshal bearing is offset" talk which isn't described in NAVAIR descriptions at least through 2009 (maybe 2015 is different) because it is offset relative to BRC but it is not offset relative to FB.

final bearing (FB) The magnetic bearing assigned by CATCC for final approach. It is an extension of the landing area centerline.

 

base recovery course (BRC) The ship’s magnetic heading during flight operations.

 

"The primary TACAN marshal fix is the 180 radial relative to the expected final bearing"

 

What that means is that if CV heading is 090 then FB is 081. The TACAN approach is along the 261 radial. The CV-1 chart reflects this. Further given ship motion and headwind the airplane heading to track this radial inbound will be right of the direct bearing to TACAN.

 

Case II operations must therefore transition (at 10nm) between the FB-based TACAN approach to the visual BRC-based landing circuit involving a right turn of nominally 9 degrees.

 

Contrary to NAVAIR 00-80T-105, CNATRA P-816 declares that Case III marshal occurs on the 180 radial relative to BRC. This discrepancy is either an error or a deliberate difference. This may explain the "marshal bearing is offset" talk which isn't described in NAVAIR descriptions at least through 2009 (maybe 2015 is different) because it is offset relative to BRC but it is not offset relative to FB.

 

Does this mean the marshall will give you 261 radial or 081 radial for marshall heading?

Radials are always bearings from the station, named like roads. You can be outbound along, inbound along, or crossing the radial. If the carrier is headed east then a radial which is behind the boat would be a western one.

 

Assuming CV heading 090:

According to P-816 marshal astern the boat would be the 270 radial. According to NAVAIR the astern marshal would be on the 261 radial.

 

A marshal on the 081 radial would be out in front of an east bound CV.

Case II operations must therefore transition (at 10nm) between the FB-based TACAN approach to the visual BRC-based landing circuit involving a right turn of nominally 9 degrees.

May you show where this is described in P-816 or said anywhere else. I can not find anything like that.

Contrary to NAVAIR 00-80T-105, CNATRA P-816 declares that Case III marshal occurs on the 180 radial relative to BRC.

I also cannot find this.

 

I don't see a discrepancy between the 2 documents. Maybe you read something i overlooked.

 

My point of view:

The pilots are interested where the marshal radial is. That's briefed and given to them as a radial and not relative to sth. They then need to take that info and figure out how much they need to correct to get on the BRC for CASE II and on the FB for CASE III during their approach.

 

What i read - P816:

CASE II:

2-19

Marshal Holding. If Marshal directs a Case II recovery, the flight will proceed to Case II/III marshal pattern holding fix. Ideally, the holding fix will be on the 180 radial relative to BRC.

->ideally->You do have to make a correction.

 

2-21

Communications. For Case II recoveries, Marshal will provide the following

information upon check in:

i. Current weather and altimeter

ii. Case recovery

iii. Marshal instructions

iv. Expected final approach button (frequency) if required

v. Expected approach time (EAT)

vi. Expected BRC

vii. Additional information such as divert field, fuel data and bingo information.

No FB give to the pilots, only BRC

 

CASE III: 2-23

a. Holding. The Case III marshal holding pattern is identical to Case II. During Case

III recoveries, aircraft will commence from the Marshal stack and fly the CV-1

Approach.

b. Approach. The CV-1 Approach is illustrated in Figure 2-8.

->CV1 ->FB.

I was sure it was FB from the start going off Wags video and it would very much make sense being an IMC approach etc. Why make it more difficulty with an offset when you cannot see.:cry:

 

It's just interesting what Nealius found in the Documents. Why would you word it this way.... The cv-natops-21oct99 is much easier.

 

 

P-816

 

I was sure it was FB from the start going off Wags video and it would very much make sense being an IMC approach etc. Why make it more difficulty with an offset when you cannot see.:cry:

 

It's just interesting what Nealius found in the Documents. Why would you word it this way.... The cv-natops-21oct99 is much easier.

 

... :music_whistling:

Don't get it? RED with RED pen, man I feel like I'm back at school:D We know that's CASE III as it clearly states it and what to do (FB) final bearing.

 

The other doc P-816 is the one we are referencing here.

 

 

 

Contrary to NAVAIR 00-80T-105, CNATRA P-816 declares that Case III marshal occurs on the 180 radial relative to BRC. This discrepancy is either an error or a deliberate difference. This may explain the "marshal bearing is offset" talk which isn't described in NAVAIR descriptions at least through 2009 (maybe 2015 is different) because it is offset relative to BRC but it is not offset relative to FB.

 

 

->ideally->You do have to make a correction.

 

 

Ideally they should make it easy to read.:D Like the other document.

 

.

Edited July 28, 2018 by David OC

Don't get it? RED with RED pen, man I feel like I'm back at school:D

:smilewink::helpsmilie:

We know that's CASE III as it clearly states it and what to do (FB) final bearing.

 

The other doc P-816 is the one we are referencing here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ideally they should make it easy to read.:D Like the other document.

 

.

 

Ok, then that got lost in translation :doh:

 

But that doesn't change that I see no discrepancy. The picture of P-816 shows CASE II.

 

My focus is on how you fly it and not how it is defined. How I see it:

CASE II: Leave Marshal, correct and intercept BRC before 12 nm.

CASE III: same with FB. CV-1

 

->No turn at 10 nm or intercepting the BRC after 10 nm for CASE II.

Yeah RED, you've got it right.

 

And one more thing, you will probably never get marshaled on any radial that doesn't end in zero or less likely, a five. They wouldn't, for example, marshal you on the 261. They would just marshal you on the 260.

May you show where this is described in P-816 or said anywhere else. I can not find anything like that.

It isn't explicitly stated. I'm synthesizing info. Case II is flown instrument procedure (FB) outside 10nm and transitions to visual procedure (BRC) inside 10nm and in sight. Since FB and BRC aren't parallel a turn is required at some point.

 

When established on the approach radial inbound your track and the ship's track are crossing at slightly less than the deck angle. Immediately prior to the break in case II your track is parallel to BRC which is not the same as during the approach. Ergo, a turn is needed.

 

->ideally->You do have to make a correction.

I see what you mean about the word ideally. P-816 doesn't say that the CV-1 approach is along a BRC radial just that "wouldn't it be nice if your holding fix was 180 from BRC." Even if your holding fix was 180 from BRC when you commenced the CV-1 approach you'd have to jog over to the proper approach path.

 

The process is described in NATOPS (CNATRA being almost identical) thusly:

6.4.7.3 Correcting to the Final Bearing

1. Jet or turboprop aircraft on the CV-1 approach will correct from the marshal radial to the final bearing at 20 miles in the following manner:

a. The pilot shall make a gradual correction when the final bearing is within 10 of the reciprocal of the marshal radial.

b. The pilot shall turn 30 when the final bearing is greater than 10 from the reciprocal of the marshal radial.

If not established on the final bearing at 12 miles, the pilot shall fly the 12-mile arc until intercepting final bearing.

But that doesn't change that I see no discrepancy. The picture of P-816 shows CASE II.

 

My focus is on how you fly it and not how it is defined. How I see it:

CASE II: Leave Marshal, correct and intercept BRC before 12 nm.

CASE III: same with FB. CV-1

 

->No turn at 10 nm or intercepting the BRC after 10 nm for CASE II.

Correction, during Case II you should fly the CV-1 approach from your marshal fix by commencing a correction at 20nm and finishing by 12nm.

 

In the case the CV is not in sight you must remain on the CV-1 approach until 5 miles at which point you do the missed approach procedures. Departing the CV-1 approach procedure is only allowed when the ship is in sight. The normal window for transitioning from CV-1 to the visual approach is 10 to 5nm. If CV is sighted beyond 10nm I think you need approach permission to discontinue CV-1 and transition to the visual by declaring CV in sight. You might have to remain CV-1 until inside 10nm regardless of CV in sight.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Frederf