Supporting wingman's SARH ?

The way you're blabbering on, it seems you don't. By the way I read your responses is you're either A. not getting kills and going back pissed. or B. you're getting shot down and might be getting a wash of 1:1 or no kill and a death.

 

not the case. i just never play the BVR game because it's a game thats almost automatically lost when you play it in the plane we are talking about.

 

 

Ohh and you still think not having DL doesn't affect the Eagle either? What are you going to do when the F18 is released with it's DL and TWS capability? It's also not so simple to just Manuver and fire. Eagles still have to support their missile to pitbull. It also doesn't have the magic eye and ET either.

this is true but not exactly important. for many reasons that it would take many paragraphs to go into, the eagle already operates far better without one than the sukhoi does, because the eagle doesn't have to split itself into smaller, separated groups to win.

 

the eagle is perfectly content flying in larger, closer formations where visual is mostly easy to keep, because it is fully capable of just bulldogging it's way into BVR and wasting everybody that comes nose to nose with it. the sukhoi simply cannot do it, which is why we are having this conversation of "how do we split ourselves up to beat this thing?" and the secondary conversation "how am i supposed to keep track of my wing when we are 5-7 miles apart and being fired at?" hence the datalink conversation.

 

for the eagle, this whole problem does not exist for the above reason.

 

edit: i should say that when the hornet comes out it'll probably come out with an AMRAAM with a realistic range, in which case it'll essentially ruin the sukhoi permanently and it will be even more pointless to fly it in a MP environment. personally i'm not looking forward to it, as the balance is already pretty skewed. i can't imagine what will happen when the eagle gets it's 20nm RTR spear of heaven, let alone what the hornet will do. if it's added to missions on popular servers it'll probably be the only thing worth flying.

 

personally i'm looking forward to the hornet, but not what the hornet is going to do to multiplayer balance. it'll probably be absolutely horrific for everyone.

 

You seem to think DL is an always working system. You do know it is LOS based right? Learn how to use BRA system and work with awingman in TS and it will just fine. Seems you want everything handed to you.

no, i do not, but i think it probably works above 0% (which is it's current working condition :^)) LOS would not be too difficult to keep between a high and a low sukhoi, or two high sukhois. the only time it wouldn't work is low in the mountains, in which case you would be flying in close formation and in visual anyway (mostly)

 

even if the enemy had the ability to jam it like they probably do in real life, it's still functional more than 0% of the time anyway.

 

I never said it did work. I actually pointed out that a "WIDE" formation that prevents the use of TWS of the eagle just puts you or your wingman in a 1/1 rather then a flight of 2.

I'm pretty sure GG didn't call your stupid and you're taking his advice wrong and thinking you need to be BVR to your wingman which is NOT THE CASE. Your understanding of Tactics is what is the problem. The eagle vs eagle has to deal with the same issues you describe. and both parties have ML capabilities.

okay so we agree

 

This here is why you got my backlash. Sinus did NOT attack you. He was trying to give advice. Just because you DON'T think it's useful does not mean it isn't.

i've already apologized and i meant it. it's just frustrating sometimes when you get in these discussions and people tell you things you've all heard before. most of these suggestions (especially ambush, envelopment, wide etc) simply don't work until you know where your friendlies are without having to say a paragraph of BRA information

 

I don't need to. You're arguing the first thing someone should be aware of when getting into this sim. SURVIVE. I fly to survive and getting a kill is secondary to landing safely. If I take off and land with all missiles on the rail but I at least tied up an enemy chasing me and leaves my buddies to engage one less bandit who could have killed one of them then I did my job. Even with that as I said my KDR is at 5:1

but we already agreed. my KDR, not that it matters particularly is above 1:1 because i simply don't engage in BVR as it is a fool's game that will get you no kills 100% of the time and killed a small percentage of the time.

 

against eagles it's a pointless exercise and an entirely ineffective means of both surviving and getting kills. it's not something i particularly like because personally i think it makes no sense and is a frustrating exercise the majority of the time. i'd much rather be in the clouds using my radar missiles, but like i said earlier, it's better to never take off in that instance because at least you are not at risk.

 

essentially hombre, our philosophy is the same, i just don't fly the eagle.

 

if you were on my side of the aisle, you would probably agree with most of what i am saying.

 

i don't lack experience.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Cik

Get some numbers, get some ETs, drag Eagles where you want them.

 

Remember that 75% of what you're probably fighting are noobs that WILL let themselves be pulled around the map.

 

If that doesn't work, left control W a few times and GTFO. You are at a disadvantage in BVR sensors and weapons, but its not quite, say, MiG-23 vs F-22.

platitudes again.

 

"just outnumber them bro"

 

yeah that doesn't help, because even if you fire ERs at them they will never connect

 

"drag eagles"

 

surrendering the field is losing FYI, trying to spin running away and having a SAM futilely shoot at them at max range is a little weird

 

anyway they can just choose not to pursue, and by the way, they don't in most cases because they're not idiots.

 

"just fire behind max range and then run"

 

yeah okay i can i guess but how is that a victory

 

isn't it a waste of time?

 

none of these strategies even accomplish anything. why are you giving advice to me that is pointless i don't know.

 

it's incredible to me how people can say these things with a straight face.

When year did the flanker get datalink? Did it show position of friendlies without ground radar?

 

IRL the historical eastern doctrine was to be vectored by GCI, the fighter was just an extension of someone on the ground with a birds eye view. They told you where to go and it was assumed you would comply.

 

And Cik, it's not a paragraph of BRA information. With all due respect, you need to be a bit more respectful here. People are trying to help you, if you don't want to hear it then don't post.

Edited February 12, 2016 by SinusoidDelta

You're not surrendering the field, you're flying a sweep sortie (almost) where controlling the airspace is unimportant; The other team ain't coming to bomb your airfield, yo!

 

Its incredible how you expect everyone to have some perfect tactic to help you.

 

I'm assuming a 104th server style scenario, mostly everyone launches whenever they can, not too much coordination above section/flight level, etc.

 

 

Edit: As for Sinus's comment, the Flanker-B has an intraflight datalink - Not sure if you're familiar with the Ka-50, but its quite similar in operation (AFAIK).

 

the eagle is perfectly content flying in larger, closer formations where visual is mostly easy to keep, because it is fully capable of just bulldogging it's way into BVR and wasting everybody that comes nose to nose with it. the sukhoi simply cannot do it, which is why we are having this conversation of "how do we split ourselves up to beat this thing?" and the secondary conversation "how am i supposed to keep track of my wing when we are 5-7 miles apart and being fired at?" hence the datalink conversation.

 

for the eagle, this whole problem does not exist for the above reason.

 

 

I need to let you know that the eagle is faced with the same issue with trying to keep track of your wingman when being shot at.. I have had several times in a flight where a talented group of FOEs either Eagles and Flankers start pulling the fight closer to WVR.

 

I've had several times where my flight has been disrupted due to going defensive and getting seperated and loosing all S/A to where my wing man is at and he ended up getting shot down.. DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE WHAT IT'S LIKE GETTING BITCHED AT BY SD-SCORCH when he gets shot down? I'd KILL FOR DL to keep track of him. I'd rather go down in a pile of flames and have a negative kdr of 0:24 and SCORCH stay in the air!!!

 

TWOS: BLIND! SCORCH:"BANDITS WEST TURN NOW" Twos: tracking bandit heading west SCORCH: "Bandit is west of me TURN" Two: Disengaging looking for your bandit NOTHING WEST NOTHING WEST. SCORCH: "GOD DA**** I'm hit. I TOLD YOU LOOK WEST" Two: I AM nothing out here. Twos circicling umm LEAD Bandit that shot you was the one I WAS GOING TO SHOOT you told me to turn west I was WEST OF YOU ALLREADY!!!!!!

 

Ohh the memories! now im gonna go cry in a corner!

 

Back to reality, DL is a great tool. but to blame short commings because you don't have it is ludacris as the eagle and all other NON networked flights have to deal with the same issue.

Edited February 12, 2016 by pr1malr8ge

When year did the flanker get datalink? Did it show position of friendlies without ground radar?

1985 apparently.

Ohh and yes I want DL in the eagle for the sold purpose of sending an aim9 up Sweeps tail pipes!

I need to let you know that the eagle is faced with the same issue with trying to keep track of your wingman when being shot at.. I have had several times in a flight where a talented group of FOEs either Eagles and Flankers start pulling the fight closer to WVR.

 

I've had several times where my flight has been disrupted due to going defensive and getting seperated and loosing all S/A to where my wing man is at and he ended up getting shot down.. DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE WHAT IT'S LIKE GETTING BITCHED AT BY SD-SCORCH when he gets shot down? I'd KILL FOR DL to keep track of him. I'd rather go down in a pile of flames and have a negative kdr of 0:24 and SCORCH stay in the air!!!

 

TWOS: BLIND! SCORCH:"BANDITS WEST TURN NOW" Twos: tracking bandit heading west SCORCH: "Bandit is west of me TURN" Two: Disengaging looking for your bandit NOTHING WEST NOTHING WEST. SCORCH: "GOD DA**** I'm hit. I TOLD YOU LOOK WEST" Two: I AM nothing out here. Twos circicling umm LEAD Bandit that shot you was the one I WAS GOING TO SHOOT you told me to turn west I was WEST OF YOU ALLREADY!!!!!!

 

Ohh the memories! now im gonna go cry in a corner!

 

Back to reality, DL is a great tool. but to blame short commings because you don't have it is ludacris as the eagle and all other NON networked flights have to deal with the same issue.

 

Waypoint synced posit calls OP. Inbefore they get nerfed. :megalol:

When the peer to peer datalink is modelled it will be a game changer. But its not a magic bullet. You still need to fly as a well coordinated and comm'd up 4 ship.

You still need to fly as a well coordinated and comm'd up 4 ship.

 

Best advice in the thread.

Best advice in the thread.

 

Comms OP, ED plz nerf :lol:

 

As a general observation, and on a more serious note, I couldn't agree more. It'll be a huge improvement having the DL working in MP, but that said, all the fancy equipment in the world won't save you against a well organised an communicating team.

 

For all those who doubt, or who are pondering exactly how much of an advantage this gives, go and watch some of Ralfidude's videos where he's teamed up on the 104'th. Apologies to Rage and the 51'st - I don't know if your unit has any videos on Youtube. If you do I'd certainly watch and learn. Probably more so since you fly the Su-27.

 

Teamwork is all important in DCS, just like for real air force pilots.

Comms OP, ED plz nerf :lol:

 

They already have, gotta use 3rd-party commo tools to be effective.

Comms are overmodeled, if anything.

 

If realism is what were after, TS or third party comms give us an infinitely powerful radio, that is extremely easy to operate, can't be jammed, can't really be eavesdropped on, and sounds clear as a bell 400 miles away.

I'd love to have the good old noisy radio transmissions. They have a certain feel to it, it's just awesome :D

 

it's just frustrating sometimes when you get in these discussions and people tell you things you've all heard before. most of these suggestions (especially ambush, envelopment, wide etc) simply don't work until you know where your friendlies are without having to say a paragraph of BRA information

 

if you were on my side of the aisle, you would probably agree with most of what i am saying.

 

i don't lack experience.

 

I think most Flanker pilots have the same thing. With al due respect, but Eagle pilots who almost never fly the Flanker come with advice we heard a thousand times, and used a hunderd times, with little succes. Like if we are stupid or something.

 

 

I've had several times where my flight has been disrupted due to going defensive and getting seperated and loosing all S/A to where my wing man is at and he ended up getting shot down..

 

 

How is it possible that a group of flankers put a group of Eagle defensive? That is almost not possible. Only if you have been ambushed in WVR or something, but then you guys have been sleeping.

 

In the past the legs of the R-27ER was significantly bigger then the 120. It was then possible to put the Eagle in defensive mode. Now you have about 10 seconds af longer range whit your R-27ER.

 

Back to reality, DL is a great tool. but to blame short commings because you don't have it is ludacris as the eagle and all other NON networked flights have to deal with the same issue.

 

DL was not available for the Eagle in that time period that it is been simulated. And the 120 C4 the same.

Maybe I am biased (I am sure I am), but things are getting changed in the favor of the Eagle the last couple of updates. I know most of eagle pilots don't want to hear that. But you have to admit that flying against flanker is easier then in the past.

Personally most kills I make with the R73...

They already have, gotta use 3rd-party commo tools to be effective.

 

Ah, I wasn't having a laugh at your expense, apologies if it came across that way, it's just it never ceases to amaze me (as appears to be the case in this thread) that some people are surprised by the fact that being organised provides such a tactical advantage.

 

On the subject of comms, I'm not sure that in-game VOIP would be worth the effort since most people use Teamspeak or the like.

I think most Flanker pilots have the same thing. With al due respect, but Eagle pilots who almost never fly the Flanker come with advice we heard a thousand times, and used a hunderd times, with little succes. Like if we are stupid or something.

 

With all due respect, in a 2v1, if you can't deal with that lone eagle, you're doing it wrong. Those of us who do fly the eagle and almost never fly the flanker (but fly it in an adversary capacity) have some experience with making things unpleasant in BVR and bringing the fight closer, at least with numerical superiority. And we'll win; but it requires work. The guys who fly the flankers really well will tell you the same thing.

That's not to detract from existing issues, but rather from statements of inadequacy that are un-true.

 

How is it possible that a group of flankers put a group of Eagle defensive? That is almost not possible.

 

And in a straight up fight, it never will be unless you have significant numerical superiority.

 

In the past the legs of the R-27ER was significantly bigger then the 120. It was then possible to put the Eagle in defensive mode. Now you have about 10 seconds af longer range whit your R-27ER.

 

And that's as it should be. Depending on range and altitude, the 27ER really shouldn't be giving you more performance than the 120 at all. Again, in a straight up fight you will be at a disadvantage, and that is the point of the 120 platform.

 

DL was not available for the Eagle in that time period that it is been simulated. And the 120 C4 the same.

 

There is no simulated time period.

 

Maybe I am biased (I am sure I am), but things are getting changed in the favor of the Eagle the last couple of updates. I know most of eagle pilots don't want to hear that. But you have to admit that flying against flanker is easier then in the past.

Personally most kills I make with the R73...

 

It's actually harder than in the past, unless you meet a poor flanker pilot. The missiles don't perform like they used to, you cannot force fights like you could before, and that is true for both sides.

As for things being 'changed in the favor of the eagle', that's just reflecting life with respect to the platforms. You'll feel better when you get DL, I'm sure. It'll also be unrealistically capable, I'm sure :)

most of these suggestions (especially ambush, envelopment, wide etc) simply don't work until you know where your friendlies are without having to say a paragraph of BRA information

 

 

 

It takes a long time to become confident in fighting a good fight but to take it into flying coordinated with others is a whole new level of learning that requires in just the same way getting the correct methods down and the same level of commitment to practicing it.

 

You don't need to keep eye contact with a wingman to stay in shape, using the cleanest comms gets you the desired results, there is no need for BE calls if you get everything right. Relaying when you're pressing when you're cold etc. what altitude and heading you take and processing this information is all part of building that SA of the flight. If you're in spread for example engaging at 320 and your left wingman turns cold he announces say heading of 120, angels 1 while you still press, when you turn cold say 100 you know that your wingman is to your right for x amount of time, he turns hot back on 320 you quickly scan and there he is 15km to your 1 o'clock. Now a delayed hook turn puts you in either close spread or wide spread. All this relayed and processed quickly and effectively keeps SA high in the flight. It's the practice of this and using the right methods that takes time just as learning BVR, BFM etc. does.

 

I don't profess to be an expert at this because it has got to be one of the most perishable skills in the sim.

On the subject of comms, I'm not sure that in-game VOIP would be worth the effort since most people use Teamspeak or the like.

 

It has been my experience that this is the opposite of true. While most squads fly with TS, the majority of individual pilots don't bother. This results in some rather frustrating encounters online when trying to sort jammers or organize runway clearance.

I'd love to have the good old noisy radio transmissions. They have a certain feel to it' date=' it's just awesome :D[/quote']

 

I would love that. There was a mod once upon a time that attempted to simulate realistic communications, was it TARS? There was modeling for transmitter gains and ranges and signal degradation.

 

It'd be wonderful to have a backup radio to talk exclusivley to wingmen and specific UHF frequencies assigned in the mission briefing for for each unit group. It'd keep coms much clearer. If CAS needed support, each CAP element lead can announce position over that frequency. Pretty quickly one could determine which element is in a position to support. Just creating a simplified system with those features would help immensely, even an external piece piece of application or TS mod. It'd also help keep all listening aware their team is working to complete a mission

 

....In a perfect world I suppose.

Yea it was TARS. Was a fun little thing.

 

You can set up whispers on TS for stuff like that to declutter comms though.

This is funny. Buddy lazing A10 supports Mirage air to air bomb run !

 

[ame]

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