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Flight Model Again V2


Focha

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Hi all,

 

So its been quite a while since I've first posted this:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=184568

 

I returned to DCS (2.5.2.18736) a few days ago and started up you Gazelle.

 

To my surprise, many of the problems I've stated about helicopters flight dynamics in my earlier post, are still present in the Gazelle version I've flown today.

 

It seems now that you helicopter has some sort of FWB by the feel of it... helicopters like Gazelle, don't fly like what you are depicting in your module, I will state this again.

 

Right now, and only to speak about simple things, when you start a turn with cyclic (level off) the helicopter just maintains the bank angle when you return cyclic to neutral position... :doh: Totally FBW for sure (this was without any AP or servos engaged).

 

Same goes for pitch... which obviously its not how a helicopter is supposed to fly.

 

So, my question is: Is FM going to be effectively revised? - I really don't care if you guys tell me that some army pilots validate it, because obviously, if they validated that, they are wrong too (whoever they are).

 

I can talk to them if you want, just PM me.

 

Again, I have around 10 years of RL helicopter flying, having flown a number of types (from R-22/44, to AS350 to more complex ones AS365/B222/AS355 etc) and I can assure, although every helicopter is different, none should have the dynamics Gazelle is showing off.

 

If you want, I can review FM further more, but only the fact that I realised what I posted, I immediately just went off.

 

Please note that you have made an incredible job with all the modelled versions of Gazelle and its systems, but the FM is a no-go for me.

 

Hope you can revise it and make it on par with the rest of the module quality.

 

Kind regards.


Edited by Focha
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+1

Just bought the Gazelle and after few minutes flying, in/out from hovering to ETL is clear that something is not right. It's true that I'm not RL pilot but have strong passion in helicopter physics and experienced with other DCS modules and 407 from xplane.

 

 

Polychop please share your idea.

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Right now, and only to speak about simple things, when you start a turn with cyclic (level off) the helicopter just maintains the bank angle when you return cyclic to neutral position... :doh: Totally FBW for sure (this was without any AP or servos engaged).

 

Same goes for pitch... which obviously its not how a helicopter is supposed to fly.

 

I don't even understand that. What should the helicopter do?

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I don't even understand that. What should the helicopter do?

 

 

 

Helicopters are not stabile without somekind autopilot, etc...

 

 

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+1

I don't get it. Everytime the FM seems to be good, it gets "reviewed" and is broken afterwards. The Gazelle is my favourite module by far, but this constant great-horrible-cycle really spoils it.

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What stick are you using?

 

Saitek X-55 here. The Gazelle felt really good, but since the last physics update she behaves as the OP described it. Put her in a turn, let go of the stick and she stays in that turn.

Modules: all, except for the Dora

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Primary system: i7-13700k, RTX 4080, 32 GB, Win 11, Virpil WarBRD + Constellation Alpha with 5cm extension, Virpil CM2 throttle, Virpil Ace Interceptor pedals, Virpil Rotor TCS base + Blackshark grip, Winwing Triple MFD and ICP, 34" UWHQD screen
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So the behaviour described in the OP is happening at my end also. If AP is engaged, she returns to a stable flighpath (albeit slower than the MI-8 for instance) when one lets go of the stick. With AP off or idividual channels disabled she holds that bank angle, not sure about ptich though.

 

I guess to judge that issue, we needed to know how exactly the Gazelle is designed and what exactly the AP does.

 

Questions concerning helicopter control and flight dynamics design:

 

1.) Provided a helicopter has a selfcentering cyclic (and force trim or such needed to be engaged separately), would said helicopter generally be designed in such a way, that the swash-plate returns to its neutral (or trimmed) position after you deflect the cyclic and let go off it? Or are there designs where only 'positiv' deflections alter the swash-plate angle? Like to bank left you have to deflect the cyclic to the left but there is no input registered on the way back to neutral position, and to counter that bank you actually have to deflect 'positiv' to the right, just to bring back the helo into level flight?

 

2.) Generally; if a helicopter is banking to one side, and the cyclic is returned to neutral (and thus the swash-plate is in its neutral (or trimmed) position), will the helicopter return to level flight (no bank) on its own?

 

 

Again, if the devs would take the time to enlighten us in detail how the Gazelle's control and flight dynamics are designed, and why we see certain behaviour with AP on and off, that would sure help a lot and leave us not guessing withou haveing all the facts.


Edited by sc_neo
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me.

 

Again, I have around 10 years of RL helicopter flying, having flown a number of types (from R-22/44, to AS350 to more complex ones AS365/B222/AS355 etc) and I can assure, although every helicopter is different, none should have the dynamics Gazelle is showing off.

 

None of these are the helicoptor and system you are complaining about. We need feedback from people who have flown this exact military helicoptor.

 

I'm sure you have some valid points, but.I would imagine the autopilot features make massive difference to how an aircraft behaves.

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Again, if the devs would take the time to enlighten us in detail how the Gazelle's control and flight dynamics are designed, and why we see certain behaviour with AP on and off, that would sure help a lot and leave us not guessing withou haveing all the facts.

 

It's not their job to explain it to us, we should do the research and prove them wrong if we think there is a problem.

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None of these are the helicoptor and system you are complaining about. We need feedback from people who have flown this exact military helicoptor.

 

I'm sure you have some valid points, but.I would imagine the autopilot features make massive difference to how an aircraft behaves.

 

 

 

He took AP off... ;)

 

 

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Dear community,

First of all thank you for your time and effort to speak about your thoughts on the Gazelle.

Let me roll up the last post from last to first.

 

About bank angles of the Gazelle a very important fact has to be known. As soon the AP and the gyro are activated, another system is running in the background to enhance flightsafety and an easier controlability of the helicopter for combat use. This system is callaed "SAS", as far I remember the correct name is Stability Augumentation System, but I would have to check that again, which is not im portant for the function it provides.

This system is designed to support the pilots and counter tendencies of the airframe that you try to neglect if possible to increase safety of flight during combat. According to the french pilots the system has 2 sides, a good and a bad one. Good one is that it enables you to fly semi automatic in cross country flights. Bad part is, if you fly more aggresiv you have to fight the systems tendencies, which is the reason why some of the pilots switch of the AP or the gyro for example.

I also switch of the trim when I fly her in DCS, then she feels even more natural to me, but that is just me and everybody has to find thier preferred way of flying her.

This SAS has no real activation button by design in the SA342M cause it is directly linked to the gyro and the autopilot.

As soon you switch off certain functions the SAS is also deactivated.

Another important factor about the Gazelle is the design of the rotorsystem. I often read that people like to compare the Gazelle and the huey. Yes both have the same phyisical laws applied, BUT, they both have different rotordesigns, not only the ammount of the blades and the width of the blades over the cord of the blade, no, the airfoil is different and very importantly, also the rotorsystem itself is designed different. The blades of the Gazelle are capable of flap and feather independently which also changes some flightbehavior in favour of the Gazelle, and no, the blades of the Huey are not capable of doing the exact same. As far I remember the blades of the Huey are only able to flap through the axis of the hinge. Also weight and distance between center of mass and rotor center are different, including the relativ positions between, mainrotor, tailrotor and center of mass, which is for example a reason why the Gazelle has literally no tendency of roll when you apply yaw. Compared that with a huey it has to be stated that both fly different and according to one of the testpilots in our team, who flys the huey for living, plus one of his buddies has over 10000h on the huey and knows the DCS huey, the flightmodel has its flaws too, which I myself can not comment, cause I have no experiance with the huey other then in DCS, so for me, in regards to the huey, I am at the same seat of opinion like the majority of the customers and think it is great.

One factor I have to add about the SAS too. This system enables the autohover of the helicopter too. Without it the SA342M would not be able to autohover or even slave itself to the Viviane sight.

 

Sc_neo pointed out that the Gazelle centers itself slower then the MI8. I do have the DCS MI8 since nearly 2 weeks now and know little to nothing about its avionics. I assume that the MI8 does not have a SAS, but as stated, I do not know, so the next thing is pure speculation. If it does not have a SAS the centering tendency of the MI8 is linked to the pendulum effect, that is more pronounced to heavy helicopters then to light once, where you feel little to no pendulum effect, which also depends on thier relativ design.

 

About Focha. I am not sure what your intentions are, but I have reviewed your former statements and compare it to yours now and they are the complete opposite. First you complained about fm issues that were by far changed now and now you complain about the fact, that the helicopter keeps it roll, which you were complaining about before, that it was not doing what I just mentioned. Not sure if I misunderstood something, but right now I am not sure where you want to travel with your statement.

 

I am happy to talk about aspects of helicopter flights all the time, but keep in mind, EVERY helicopter flys different and also DCS huey and DCS MI8 have flightmodel flaws, which I have seen myself. But I am not discussing any other module that is not our own, which would not be fair and I hope that we do not have to compare DCS huey and DCS Gazelle all the time to explain things, cause explaining and comparing flaws with flaws just make things worse and I would not like to judge other modules in comparrison with ours. I am certain the people who made the other modules have thier valid information why the modules are the way they made them. Same apllies for us.

 

@Focha, please make sure that the FFB options are turned off. One of the pilots was bitching about the Gazelle too, until we compared settings and figurred that FFB was activ, although he uses a none FFB stick.

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ummm bank angles seems similar in effect to either Huey or Mi8 or Gazelle you need to apply the required input to change the attitude of the aircraft.

 

Turn the SAS off it feels better. :D

 

The Gazelle and the Huey and the Mi8 do not "center" them selves when you release the control that's just so jopystickish,.. :(

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

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Then let me ask you a very simple question, why is it impossible to get into VRS?

And don't say it's because of the blade material because that's not how it works.

 

1) VRS is the simmer holy graal and that's cool but IRL I never talked to a Gazelle pilot who experienced it, including a 5000 h pilot who who's job was to carry slingloads in the Alps. So if he never met it during his 5000 h at 3000 m, I think that it may not happen so easily.

 

2) VRS is implemented and I can confirm it to you as long as I participated in the test sessions, and most of the beta testers are from my squad, it is simply hard to get and more than all, you get out from the ring very very fast so you may hardly notice it. Still, promise, it is implemented. Of course you can consider that I am an evil slave of Polychop, but my question would be : Why ? I am not paid (If they paid me then, it could be different) :D

 

3) Your assertion tends to make me think that you don't think that the blade shape of an helicopter really matter on his aerodynamics, which feels a bit the same as if I said : Wings on a plane don't matter... There are as many differences between the Gazelle rotor shapes and Huey one than between a P-47 and an F-16 ^^

 

I don't blindly defend devs but here, sincerely, you are wrong...

 

Nicolas

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I like the SA342 very much. In VR it is awsome.

 

 

But there is one thing in FM i can´t explain to myself:

 

 

If Speed is higher than 75-80 km/h and i push the Rudder full left or full right, it feels the Tail is smashing at a buffer. It´s a hard and fixed pointed bumper. (Not real, but it feels so) No matter if the Gyro+AP is on or off.

 

 

 

Can anyone explain this to me or just confirm this?

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1) VRS is the simmer holy graal and that's cool but IRL I never talked to a Gazelle pilot who experienced it, including a 5000 h pilot who who's job was to carry slingloads in the Alps. So if he never met it during his 5000 h at 3000 m, I think that it may not happen so easily.

 

2) VRS is implemented and I can confirm it to you as long as I participated in the test sessions, and most of the beta testers are from my squad, it is simply hard to get and more than all, you get out from the ring very very fast so you may hardly notice it. Still, promise, it is implemented. Of course you can consider that I am an evil slave of Polychop, but my question would be : Why ? I am not paid (If they paid me then, it could be different) :D

 

3) Your assertion tends to make me think that you don't think that the blade shape of an helicopter really matter on his aerodynamics, which feels a bit the same as if I said : Wings on a plane don't matter... There are as many differences between the Gazelle rotor shapes and Huey one than between a P-47 and an F-16 ^^

 

I don't blindly defend devs but here, sincerely, you are wrong...

 

Nicolas

 

 

Well you make alot of assumptions there about me. I'm not comparing it to the huey? I'm comparing it to my real-life experience. I've never flown the gazelle irl but I have flown more then one helicopter from EC/AS.

 

When I'm able to go almost full collective down and a straight vertical decent with 3000+ ft a minute and 8m above the ground slap on 40% of throttle and come to a steady hover... Something is not adding up.

 

 

And I've never said anything about the shape of the blade did I?

 

 

 

Btw I never said the huey was perfect. I realize it's missing some aerodynamic effects that I'd really like to see but overall to me it feels much better. Now I'm also of the opinion pilots do not make the best people to ask these things. The same goes for engineers. You'll always end up having the engineer saying something is (im)possible and the pilot saying the exact opposite. You fly irl not by your eyes but by all your sensory inputs. Eyesight is just one that you're taught to not rely on too much. Same goes for the ass.


Edited by YorZor
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When I'm able to go almost full collective down and a straight vertical decent with 3000+ ft a minute and 8m above the ground slap on 40% of throttle and come to a steady hover... Something is not adding up.

 

You can do the same crazy stuff in the Huey :music_whistling:

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Which could indicate that the Huey also isn't perfect, doesn't necessarily prove that the Gazelle is correct. Surely someone's feedback based on real experience is worth listening to? We all stand to benefit if we can get to the bottom of what's going on with the flight model.

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I like the SA342 very much. In VR it is awsome.

 

 

But there is one thing in FM i can´t explain to myself:

 

 

If Speed is higher than 75-80 km/h and i push the Rudder full left or full right, it feels the Tail is smashing at a buffer. It´s a hard and fixed pointed bumper. (Not real, but it feels so) No matter if the Gyro+AP is on or off.

 

 

 

Can anyone explain this to me or just confirm this?

 

 

Once you start to exceed 70 or 80 Km/h the massive tail fin surface area plus tail boom directional fins start to take authority on directional flight. One of the fenestron design strengths comes from its ability to reduce tail rotor engine drain to almost nought in forward flight, this leaves all power for the main rotors.

 

 

Any fenestron design you look at has a massive tail fin surface area and this is simply a benefit of an aerodynamic tail rotor!

 

 

You are simply fighting a very strong wind vain once a certain speed is achieved!


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

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If you compare the tail fin of a Huey or the hind.

Hit F2 and get a good side view...... the tail fins are tiny in proportion to the body of the machine, do you see this too or is it just me?

The tail fin of the Gazelle is massive in proportion to the whole machine.

 

This tail fin and the boom "vertical fins" has a massive effect through every aspect of flight. You turn left then there is a whole hunk a aerodynamic tail fin that needs to follow.... and it dictates a line of travel.

 

 

This thing is the light weight sports car of the chopper world!


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Once you start to exceed 70 or 80 Km/h the massive tail fin surface area plus tail boom directional fins start to take authority on directional flight. One of the fenestron design strengths comes from its ability to reduce tail rotor engine drain to almost nought in forward flight, this leaves all power for the main rotors.

 

 

Any fenestron design you look at has a massive tail fin surface area and this is simply a benefit of an aerodynamic tail rotor!

 

 

You are simply fighting a very strong wind vain once a certain speed is achieved!

 

Yes it makes going from forward flight and and turning the aircraft to fly backwards a tad more work than the others but doable none the less. :P:D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Yeah, now it is. A year ago it was an underpowered VW Beetle from the 60s. :D

 

 

 

She always had the pedigree and always behaved so... in fact the old machine required a solid chunk of work to get a corner level and straight and once mastered she was a machine of speed and intent......

I gotta get used to the new easy model.... but she reacts quick and that is all I need!

 

 

She is still underpowered in hot and High conditions..... a fellas gotta think ahead and work hard in this weaponized chopper.... as it should be.

 

 

No Chopper has this girls ability to snipe undetected, the tiger must be fabulous! Really really fabulous!


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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