Learning to dogfight... against AI?

So before you all reply sensibly with "go online everyone is friendly and you'll learn better", I want to stress, that is my plan in the end, but not right away.

Not just because I'm afraid of getting my backside handed to me, I know thats the fastest way to learn. More that I just don't have enough control over my playing time to get any kind of regular sessions planned.

So the idea of being able to set up a simple mission to dogfight against AI quickly. and adjust things as I learn the rudimentary basics on my own terms, just really appeals to me.

So I have questions:

1: I know the AI recently got upgraded and dogfighting is now better, is this a placebo effect or is it actually now serving as a decent basis that I could actually learn something from?

2: Is it possible to set up a merge and engagement trigger in the mission editor, to kind of get a 1 on 1 dogfight simulated as it happens online?

3: Are the maple flag BFM and ACM campaigns useful and worth buying the modules and map needed for them, or am I better in the ME creating my owns scenarios to learn.

4: Even with everything I said above, would you say it is even possible to learn the basics of the basics against AI or is it a fools errand? (I know it wont make me a pro, but I hope it can help me learn some of the more basic manoeuvres and what to do in certain situations as right now I'm useless (plan to watch art of the kill and read Shaw's book as well as watching lots of videos, like growling sidewinder.)

Online is in my future, but I literally love the act of learning the plane, flying, landing, and love researching BFM, ACM and dogfighting strategies, and want to learn them on my own timescale and terms. Hope you all can help answer some of these questions.

I'd say the AI is a great aiming practise, and some very basic flight maneuvers. Play a bit with the skill level of them, but be advised:

Putting it to high makes them just loop around you over and over and over since they don't really like to follow your physics. Giving them lower Skill might end up in a way to easy fight.

But then again, nothing of this AI comes close to real human players, as you know, human make mistakes and can improvise. This AI can only do very limited things.

 

Not just because I'm afraid of getting my backside handed to me, I know thats the fastest way to learn.

Not necessarily. If you have no idea what you did "wrong" in the first place, you won't learn much from it. I highly recommend an add on program called "TACVIEW". It's a flight analysis tool that basically "saves" data from your session, including data from enemy weapons, and when your mission is over you can review it any amount of times, at any speed, from any angle. You can see when the bad guy launched, how you reacted, etc.

With THAT information, and by reading/watching videos online, you can start to form an idea of what you should have done versus what you actually did - and THAT will help you learn.

I believe Tacview has a free limited feature version so you can try it out - and note I am not affiliated with that project in any way. Just beware some multiplayer servers prevent programs like Tacview from recording the last 15 minutes of a session to prevent using it to cheat.

The AI does some pretty interesting stuff when set to excellent now. I saw some high level BFM from a Mig 21 last night when testing my mission.

So there definitely has been some change.

 

Putting it to high makes them just loop around you over and over and over since they don't really like to follow your physics. Giving them lower Skill might end up in a way to easy fight.

Honestly I am working from such a beginner place I doubt ill get to a point where the level below excellent is too easy anytime soon.

So for now Excellent AI is not a worry.

I highly recommend an add on program called "TACVIEW".

I have heard of tacview, Love it when Growling Sidewinder goes over his engagements, will definitely use it.

The AI does some pretty interesting stuff when set to excellent now. I saw some high level BFM from a Mig 21 last night when testing my mission.

This is great to hear!

I saw some high level BFM from a Mig 21 last night when testing my mission.

 

So there definitely has been some change.

You sure he wasn't just trying to recover from a stall? :lol::lol::lol:

I only play offline and do plenty of air-to-air. My answer is yes definitely, it's worthwhile to play against the AI. The AI in DCS is better than many other flight sims where all they do is turn in a circle forever. The AI does use a broken flight model, but how disadvantageous that is depends entirely on the matchup. And I suspect different planes have different degrees of wackiness in the flight model. Anyway, the main problem with the AI flight model is the lack of need to conserve energy and the crazy thrust to weight ratio. An F-5 at near stall speed will just pull up and rocket into the sky at will. So as long as you have a matchup where you would have a thrust advantage you can still use that to keep up to some extent. But if you have equal thrust or less than the plane you're fighting, you're gunna be in for a really rough time because the AI will do vertical loops all day long until he's behind you.

The AI does some pretty interesting stuff when set to excellent now. I saw some high level BFM from a Mig 21 last night when testing my mission.

 

So there definitely has been some change.

What's the difference between " high " and " excellent " ?

Hi Idrisguitar,

My take on your questions:

1.) Honestly I think its mainly placebo effect at play here.Yes the A.I. aiming got tuned as well as their aggressiveness in pursuing damaged planes.

But for normal bfm, once the opening moves are over and you(the player) get in a semi offensive position its back to countless loop after loop sillyness.

Still a long way from being a credible adaptive opponent.

Plus,as Kengou said, their flight models/dynamics are badly messed up.How much depends on the aircraft in question, but most are sub-standard.

2.)Setting up simple 1v1 , 1v2 or 1v many dogfights is quite simple & straight forward in the ME.You can also easily do setups for offensive, defensive and neutral start.

What you shouldn‘t expect is being able to construct realistic canned bfm setups

like butterfly or perches as here the A.I.shortcomings become obvious and hamper things.(if you have no idea what those terms mean, dont worry, you ll probably read about them sometime)

3.)Useful hmm.

I personally would say no,at least not in the way of learning bfm.Because you still get to fight only the usual a.i. in prefabricated missions.

You can setup the same engagements yourself in the ME for zero dollars.

Thats not to say the campaigns are bad or anything . Guess they do add a lot in immersion&atmosphere ,with the voice overs,briefings and radio chatter and so on.

Thats just my personal opinion.You will have to decide whether you want that.

4.) Yes there is some use in fighting the a.i. I would say.

-You can practice various moves/maneuvres and try to fly them more energy efficient (i.e. conserve more energy)

-You can practice aiming and lead with the gunsight of the aircraft of your choice against maneuvering targets of various sizes and at different distances.

-You can practice spotting enemy aircraft and keeping them in sight during turnfights which can be very very difficult (this also depends on display setup/monitor/Trackir/VR equipment a lot)this becomes very very important in multiplayer.

-You can practice radar operation and BVR intercepts .

Give it a try I would say. Try to keep in mind though that being good at fighting the A.I. doesn‘t

equate to being good in multiplayer against human opponents.Otherwise you re in for a lot of frustration;-) ( I‘m still in the frustration phase though :))

Hope this helps a bit,wishing you lots of fun with bfm!

Kind regards,

Snappy

The AI does some pretty interesting stuff when set to excellent now. I saw some high level BFM from a Mig 21 last night when testing my mission.

 

So there definitely has been some change.

Perhaps AI works different on different planes. I just tried Mig29S set to "Excellent" and I wasn't impressed. In BVR setups (I did 3 only) I can't say for sure but AI seemed the same as before.

In guns only fights... definitely the same as before. I've done many different setups and the same mistakes come up every time. The AI gave me a good turning fight whenever I tried to maintain energy, especially in 2 circle one but that's how they behaved before the last few updates.

Here's 2 beak to beak setups. Each fight took about 1 minute:

https://youtu.be/uUW7zI4XDLU

Thanks for those replies snappy and gripes. Really informative and gives me a really good idea of what I'll be dealing with in a beginner level.

Honestly I would be using the ai to get used to the bfms get used to energy conservation. Practice turn rates and improve my aim. All thing that will help online.

Obviously I will always keep in mind that human will be a completely different beast but having some bfms in muscle memory and have control of my plane will help to begin with that stuff.

I'm surprised nobody has asked you what plane you're flying?

I'm surprised nobody has asked you what plane you're flying?

Hornet, also may get the mirage as I love a good singleplayer campaign.

Problem is, we need somebody to drill with. I don't find the AI to be very helpful in that regard.

After I got some one-on-one from a friend of mine, I went back to the AI. I really only found it helpful for one thing, namely, what to do when the bandit goes into the vertical. Once you figure that out, it's just not fun anymore. You kind of have to get behind him right away because he never runs out of energy, and you will eventually, but once you figure out how to do that it gets real repetitive.

I've noticed recently, sometimes the bandit will keep it in the horizontal, and if he does you can sucker him into a 1C fight, which is fun for about five minutes, because he doesn't try very hard.

So basically, no. If there's a way to make the AI a useful learning experience, I haven't figured it out yet

Hi Idrisguitar,

one more thing, especially if you fly the Hornet.Before you go buy any campaigns, check the userfiles for free bfm missions/campaigns.I think there is even a relatively good "Top gun" campaign for the hornet that puts you up against various opponents.

So you can see if that suits your taste and then decide about buying campaigns.

Regards,

Snappy

As a new comer it is sad to hear the AI has a simplified flight model and I noticed those pesky F5E's were holding energy in close fights whilst my Su27 bled out. Had to work with the Su's stall and helmet targeting to get them down.

My WW2 fix has AI flying the same flight model as player and also with Pilot Physiology modelling as well. It makes for quite a different offline experience. Would be great to see something similar with Jets.

At the moment though - I am just seeing it as a means to come to terms with weapons systems and learn them well before thinking of any online flying. Not that familiar with BVR fighting and modern electronics.

Perhaps AI works different on different planes. I just tried Mig29S set to "Excellent" and I wasn't impressed. In BVR setups (I did 3 only) I can't say for sure but AI seemed the same as before.

In guns only fights... definitely the same as before. I've done many different setups and the same mistakes come up every time. The AI gave me a good turning fight whenever I tried to maintain energy, especially in 2 circle one but that's how they behaved before the last few updates.

Here's 2 beak to beak setups. Each fight took about 1 minute:

 

https://youtu.be/uUW7zI4XDLU

Each model does seem to fly different fights. The Mig 29 behavior in your video is what I see from them as well. They put the lift vector on you and pull. It seems to be the only programming they have. Whereas, I have seen Mig 21's using much better lift vector placement, sometimes in lead, sometimes in lag making for a more interesting fight.

And they will react identically if you present them with the same setup time and again.

That is actually a good thing for a beginner.

Once you can regularly beat a wide variety of AI set to excellent, its time to find human opposition.

 

...Once you can regularly beat a wide variety of AI set to excellent, its time to find human opposition.

As usual I do everything backwards, started with humans then progressed to AI:lol: