Formation Flying and AAR is Impossible!

Anyone that can do it should be burned as a witch!

That is all!

Have a nice day :)

Anyone seen my broomstick...?

Any particular airframe causing you issues Sledge?

If you haven't adjusted your controller axis curves that is the first place I would start.

Anyone that can do it should be burned as a witch!

 

 

That is all!

Have a nice day :)

Are you really, really 100% trimmed? If you are not able to let go off your stick and your plane stays stable at the tanker, TRIM ;)

Most important step.

And yes, it is necessary in almost every plane, at least it makes life better ;)

Is it possible to trim 100% ? It's either climbing a little bit or diving a little bit, usually not perfectly level unless you finetune with the throttle.

What does help is to not steer with the joystick, just tap it.

LOL @deadpool

Yup, that's just about right!

Seriously though, it's all about trim: I get that. I'm flying the A-10C (I know, maybe not the best to start with but I'm trying to stick with it|) and I just can't get it trimmed for level flight, and I'm trying every time I go up to do it. But in the end I give up and auto-pilot just to get a break and get on with a mission or something else. I can SORT of get it trimmed for pitch by balancing the throttle but the roll is never right. In any case the inputs - even the slightest flick on the stick or tap on the keyboard - seem to be enough to start the ball rolling the other way; I would love to know how to set the keyboard and stick sensitivities to match what you guys do. I just KNOW I can get on faster if I could decrease or fine tune the sensitivity of the stick trim, in particular.

I'm willing to do what it takes - I know I'm still very green - and I'm improving but this one is beating me at the moment.

I have TM Warthog Stick and Throttles and TM rudder pedals. I use the NoID A-10C profile - amended slightly for my button taste.

Trim is RCTRL+ , . / ; or HOTAS stick Pinky switch + coolie u d l r

Sledge.

The best tip i got when I joined an aerobatic team several years ago was to trim your aircraft for nose down a bit. As soon as you need to push your stick forward to lower the nose, you loose every feel about it. This is also true for AAR.

I have TM Warthog Stick and Throttles and TM rudder pedals. I use the NoID A-10C profile - amended slightly for my button taste.

It's up to you of course.

Personally, I don't use TARGET and always do the button mapping in DCS. In a default configuration, the TM Warthog is plug & play compatible with the DCS A-10C; it's only the trim hat that controls views instead of trim.

Trim is RCTRL+ , . / ; or HOTAS stick Pinky switch + coolie u d l r

The real life assignment is to use the trim hat without any modifiers. Probably doesn't make much of a difference, and if you need the hat for view controls, it makes sense to use a modifier for trim. But having to depress the modifier for trimming probably isn't making it any more precise, either. I feel my hand just rests easier on the stick without pushing the pinky lever.

*****

Anyway. If you haven't set up any joystick curves, that might really help you. In DCS, go to the controls setup, select "Axis" from the dropdown on top, click your joystick pitch axis and hit "Axis tune". What you're looking for is a positive curve setting.

(Positive) Curves make your controls much finer near the center, but exaggerates them near the outer limits. It's not a perfect trade-off, but for any type of precision formation flying and aerial refueling, it can really make the difference.

A good starting point might be a curve setting of +20, or even more than that.

Then select the roll axis, go to Axis tune again, and give it the same curve setting that you just set for pitch.

It'll take some time to get acquainted to the new joystick feeling, but the jet should be instantly much more friendly to your inputs and fine controls.

Personally, I started with a 30 curve on pitch and roll, and gradually worked my way down to 15 over several weeks. I settled with 15 until I recently got a 10cm extension; now I use 0 curve and it feels pretty natural. (Actually switched to a VPC base and grip, big step up the precision ladder! But that's in no way necessary to do AAR in the A-10C)

The best tip i got when I joined an aerobatic team several years ago was to trim your aircraft for nose down a bit. As soon as you need to push your stick forward to lower the nose, you loose every feel about it. This is also true for AAR.

This! :thumbup:

The A-10C is fairly difficult to trim out perfectly. There's almost always going to be a little bit of nose up/down and roll right/left tendency left in the aircraft, no matter how finely the trim inputs are applied.

Adding a bit of nose down trim also helped my a lot with AAR, because now I have a constant bit of back pressure on the stick and it gives me more fine control.

Keep one eye on the hud when you're trying to formate level, that way you can keep your velocity vector on the horizon line which will do wonders to reduce PIO. After a while you'll get the muscle memory to not overreact, but until then use it as an aid.

Unless you're trying to formate in a Spit, then you'll be ok until you randomly start oscillating all over the sky...

Formation flying while turning without any depth perception is horrible, not found a decent trick for that yet.

Hello all,

Thank you for the continuing input. This is all VERY useful stuff and I am certainly going to try reverting to the vanilla Warthog settings and change up/down the curves etc. The change to non-modifier trimming will help, although I still have a lot of 'feel' to develop.

I've decided that, until I can AAR in the A-10C...well, I've decided to AAR until I can actually do it. Watch this space!

Sledge

I can do it in the hornet mostly-ish, if it's not to windy etc.

Tried with the f14 and promptly killed myself by finally managing to trap myself in a death spin.

I can do it in the hornet mostly-ish, if it's not to windy etc.

 

Tried with the f14 and promptly killed myself by finally managing to trap myself in a death spin.

Hey Bob,

I'm hoping that if I can crack it in the A-10C I'll be able to do it in anything. That's in the future though. For the moment I believe I have been christened 'TankerKiller' by the AI.

Onwards (..and less downwards with the flaming jetfuel).

Sledge

:joystick:

I've struggled with it for years and only very occasionally managed to connect. Got a vr headset the other day and I can connect relativley easily every time. It's so different in vr.

so i am currently doing the A-10c, and the thing i figured out if i want to keep her stable.. is to trim nose down futher than i feel is needed, that way i have futher back stick thus finer control over small inputs also helps if you hit some bumby places and turbulance, that way you can release a bit of your stick and still stay pretty stable.. i have never had an issue with rudder stability, and kept it at zero'ed out and if i really did have to trim it wasn't much..

i personally say learn to fly with using your rudder zeroed out., now i don't know if you have pedals or not and if you do have pedals which ever side is your dominate lets say if you are right handed.. then trim more left rudder and control with your right.. the thing you have to remember is your own body will react faster handle better by staying on your dominate side..

by doing it via your dominate side.. you will have to put more right rudder to compensate but because it is your dominate you should have finer control .. also you will always have better control by whatever is closer to you.. so that is why you put the plane nose down in trim and pull back on the stick keep that tension the idea behind it is.. because it is closer to you and you can feel the tension it will help you control better..

Throttle control i have no advice on because.. i just always feel it out but for formation you want to match the speed or close too who ever you are flying in formation with so ask the person you are flying with there current speed.. then learn your throttle postion were it should be to get certian speed do this.. by yourself take your plane put it on max.. then slowly bring it back a step and then see what your speed is.. also this will be based on your weight as well.. hence why i said it's best to feel it out but it wont vary to much from the orginal postion you place your throttle in..

so step it back wait about a minute see the speed step it back again, see the speed.. i personally did 100% 80% 70% of rpm thus i have a clear gauge to go by..

sorry for spelling and stuff english is not my first language but i wanted to help..

Hello all,

Thank you for the thoughts and ideas.

It's improving. I think the switch to vanilla Warthog has made a positive difference; the trim doesn't feel so harsh...but I'm also aware that this may be me improving finer control a little. Not there yet. Going to make some basic formation missions as well as keeping up circuits and bumps and head-butting tankers.

Sledge

Ok I seem to have hit a wall. Although not perfect my approach to pre-contact is def improving, so my join up is getting better. BUT...as soon as I open the fuel valve the A-10 goes into what I can only describe as stall/spin.

I am trimmed ok with some stick pressures to maintain and get to pre-contact, but as soon as I open the valve - BOOM. All over the place.

Am I doing something obviously wrong?

Sledge

Am I doing something obviously wrong?

If you could post a track, that would be great, so that we can virtually look over your shoulder.

But as a wild guess... did you somehow forget to put your weapon systems into a safe state before approaching the tanker? I mean, it's okay to shoot the tanker down, but only if you do it on purpose. :lol:

The thing is, opening the receptacle on the A-10 also disables PAC. Which would be no factor normally, because Master Arm Safe also disables PAC. But if both Master Arm and Gun PAC Arm were on, you'd see a good bit of pitch change the instant you open the receptacle, which needs to be trimmed out.

<snip>

... did you somehow forget to put your weapon systems into a safe state before approaching the tanker? I mean, it's okay to shoot the tanker down, but only if you do it on purpose. :lol:

Nah everything was safe. I haven't done much weaponising anyway but trying not to shoot anything now until I can do this

The thing is, opening the receptacle on the A-10 also disables PAC....

<snip>

Do you mean AP/Autopilot? I can't think that opening the fuel valve would do that (PAC)...but if it does...wtf...why? Anyway it's moot because PAC wouldn't be engaged unless I pull the trigger stage 1??

Sledge

Do you mean AP/Autopilot? I can't think that opening the fuel valve would do that (PAC)...but if it does...wtf...why? Anyway it's moot because PAC wouldn't be engaged unless I pull the trigger stage 1??

When you fly straight and level and engage both Master Arm and Gun/PAC on the AHCP, you'll see a fairly strong pitch change. AFAIK, this is done so that PAC has enough elevator authority to keep the nose stable while the gun is firing.

Note that this is Gun/PAC arm, not the actual PAC activation that happens when PAC is armed and the gun trigger is depressed.

When either Master Arm or Gun/PAC are disabled, or when PAC is disabled for other reasons, the aircraft will pitch in the other direction.

(For the life of me I can never recall whether the PAC arming pitches the jet up or down; I just know that I have to be quick on the trim in order to counter it ;)).

This is the single most common reason for any attitude changes when the receptacle is opened that I can think of.

But again, a track would be great.

 

<snip>

 

Note that this is Gun/PAC arm, not the actual PAC activation that happens when PAC is armed and the gun trigger is depressed...

 

AHHHHH! Ok I get you. No, it was never armed; all safe from the start of the mission.

I now know what it is; there are two things going on here.

By coincidence I was opening the valve at the same time as hitting the wake, which I didn't even know was a thing. Never heard of it, and I didn't know it was an option to turn on or off. I'm sure one can avoid it - in fact I think I can see from diagrams that approaching from the correct angle achieves this - but I'm going to turn it off for now; don't nobody need that sh** as a novice:D It's tempting to try it with something more stable but I'll stick with the A-10C for now.

None of the tutorial videos I saw was recorded after wake turbulence was introduced, so they need updating.

Thanks for the input.

Sledge

AAR is just formation flying with the tanker. That said, my main advise would be to look past the HUD.

"Flying with the HUD" seems to be a common mistake in flight simming, especially when staring at a 2D screen. Ignore the HUD, ignore the speed, etc, just look out at your lead (or tanker). Practice enough to develop the feel of how your relative motion shows in the 2D screen and it will become easier with time. Also learn the visual references of the correct position. A too high FOV setting may make all this difficult so find a sweetspot.

Somebody mentioned trimming nose down a little bit. I tend to do this in DCS as well for AAR too (just a tiny bit of trim down) as otherwise I become unstable, but I don't know if this is RL advice transferred to the sim or just cheap PC hardware. RL generally defaults to a trimmed hands-off aircraft. Definitely aim for small and controlled inputs the closer you are.

If you are using VR then it should all be simpler due to having depth perception. In the end formation flying is like driving parallel to another car on the highway, just moving in an extra 3rd dimension.

Hey Bob,

 

I'm hoping that if I can crack it in the A-10C I'll be able to do it in anything. That's in the future though. For the moment I believe I have been christened 'TankerKiller' by the AI.

Onwards (..and less downwards with the flaming jetfuel).

 

Sledge

:joystick:

I figure it could go the other way as well, doing it in the easiest, which is still plenty difficult, could give you that needed encouragement as well give you the "feeling" of what it's like in doing it right. Then you can add your less stable aircraft later for increased difficulty.

By coincidence I was opening the valve at the same time as hitting the wake, which I didn't even know was a thing.

Haha, yeah, that certainly explains a lot. :D

I must admit I didn't think of turbulence. On the other hand, a track would have shown that to be the cause. :smartass:

In any case, good luck with the refueling!

if you ever get on the aerobatics online server and join their discord, keep an eye out for a guy named Mugga. he flys in a mig formation team that i dont recall the name of but if you get the chance to fly with him on comms for even 30 mins i bet you will learn something. ive been flying basic formations for over 10 years in this sim and he has given me advise that has helped me massively

Anyone that can do it should be burned as a witch!

 

 

That is all!

Have a nice day :)

I totally agree with you.

Witchcraft :

Advanced witchcraft :

Advanced dark witchcraft :

Coven-elite supreme witchcraft : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4XF13eY2JY

As much as it seems impossible, I am secretly longing for the day when we can at least try some of that advanced stuff in DCS.

:joystick: