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Old 08-09-2019, 02:23 PM   #41
Drakoz
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Propeler, I assume 2.4kg at 10cm is 0.24 kg-m which is 2.35 N-m. That”s what you just calculated, correct? If so, then that is just over half the torque of the Brunner which makes sense that this stick is much smaller than the Brunner. Correct?

I’m confused about the comment “even with a 10mm extension”. A normal grip’s CG is about 10cm from the stick’s gimbal. An extra 10cm extension would move that CG twice as far away (ignoring the weight of the extension) which would halve the power of the FFB stick or rather require twice the torque to get he same performance. So really a Brunner with a Warthog grip and a 10cm extension is about the same as this new FFB stick at no extension and hence not powerful enough to handle the grip. Is that what you meant?
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Old 08-09-2019, 02:35 PM   #42
FoxHoundcn
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Originally Posted by Drakoz View Post
I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but mostly I'm happy with what I see. I've been on a slow burn designing my own FFB stick (just as a DIY project) and many of the things I see this stick doing is exactly what my own goals were intending to achieve. But such a stick isn't cheap even as a DIY project.

FoxHoundcn, congrats on your efforts. Here is what I think I see. I hope you can confirm if I have some of this right. Even at that price, I am very interested.

The biggest thing I see is what appears to be a well designed FFB stick but it isn't huge like the Brunner. Maybe that is good, or maybe it means this new stick is just underpowered or might have weak parts. But what I see implies a strong stick. Hence my congrats for making this small and powerful.

Why so expensive? My comments... Aside from being a niche market, the big deal is direct drive, no gears! To get that kind of smoothness and precision requires expensive (relatively powerful and high quality) motors to drive that kind of torque without gearing. They also tend to be big motors, hence why I am wondering if the force is strong enough. Compare this to the $1000-$2000 direct drive race car sim wheels that are all the rage today for serious race simmers. My guarded thoughts are they did this one right at least in the mechanical/motor design and the price does not surprise me at all.

Watch the videos carefully. The stick is moving more like a CNC machine with what appears to be proper PID feedback loops. In the video where it is vibrating like crazy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbo9...ature=youtu.be), he grabs it and moves it and when released, despite the vibration and large spring constant (fast return rate to center), it snaps back to center and does not oscillate back and forth or overshoot (other than the vibration). Do that with a Logitech G940, and it would go into a self destructive oscillation. A MS FFB2 would be better, but would still oveshoot or oscillate several times before hopefully coming to a stop. That is why these sticks have a hand sensor on them. Leaving any consumer FFB stick like the G940 or MS FFB 2 plugged in, powered up, and unattended (if you have taped over the hand sensor like most of us have), is a dangerous thing to do because a minor input could send the stick into a destructive oscillation. Ever had your cat play with your FFB stick? They will only do it once. But a better design can prevent this and not have to use a hand sensor either. It is done with PID feedback loops, good motors, and accurate position sensing.

Or in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjz5...ature=youtu.be), see how it snaps back initially kind of quickly, but decelerates as it approaches the center point. Again, this tells me the stick is using good software to control it's movements (good acceleration and deceleration along with PID feedback loops), and good hardware.

This is exactly the kind of design I've been talking about for years. The right way to do a FFB stick. Direct drive (no notchy feeling due to gearing), and proper PID feedback loops. At least that is what I hope I am seeing. Maybe I'm reading too much into the videos. But it looks good so far.



My questions... (I hope FoxHoundcn can respond to these questions.)

If the chosen motors are not high pole count motors, or maybe planetary gear motors (which means they are geared, but the gearing is built into the motor and should be very smooth), then we will still feel significant notchiness due to crossing the magnetic poles of the motor. I can't tell about this from the videos of course. That requies holding one for real. Even on the MS FFB2, being the nicest feeling consumer FFB stick ever made, you can feel the change in magnetic field as you pass through the poles of the motor. It isn't bad, but definitely noticable. It is that good on the MS FFB due to gearing (abot 80 to 1 if I remember correctly). So to have no gearing, the motor is turning only about 40 degrees (so ratio is more like 0.3 to 1). The notchiness can be very prominent unless the motors are very high pole count. For $1100, I would hope this new stick has no such notchiness.

Also, in the 2nd video linked above, it looks like the stick does not always return to the same center position. The first 2 releases, it was very precise with a perfect deceleration to center. The second two releases, it didn't look so precise, not returning to center. Maybe it is still early software or maybe I am mis-interpreting what is happening.

I assume "TM Cougar, TM Warthog" compatibility means the grips from these sticks screw on. But I assume that does not mean any kind of TM TARGET compatibility. Does this FFB stick have any software for programming buttons?

That's what I can gather from the pictures and videos. I'm looking forward to real information soon.
I have uploaded the original software version image. You can get some useful information from it. There is no rebound in the back because the damping force is simulated, so it will not oscillate. The motor eliminates the pinning of the pole switching through a special magnetic pole.
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Old 08-09-2019, 02:39 PM   #43
propeler
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Originally Posted by Drakoz View Post
Propeler, I assume 2.4kg at 10cm is 0.24 kg-m which is 2.35 N-m. That”s what you just calculated, correct? If so, then that is just over half the torque of the Brunner which makes sense that this stick is much smaller than the Brunner. Correct?

I’m confused about the comment “even with a 10mm extension”. A normal grip’s CG is about 10cm from the stick’s gimbal. An extra 10cm extension would move that CG twice as far away (ignoring the weight of the extension) which would halve the power of the FFB stick or rather require twice the torque to get he same performance. So really a Brunner with a Warthog grip and a 10cm extension is about the same as this new FFB stick at no extension and hence not powerful enough to handle the grip. Is that what you meant?
Yep. Something like this. But only real tests will tell us the truth I assume that this base will be ok for table-top or side-stick usage without any extensions and with light grip.

Last edited by propeler; 08-09-2019 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:31 PM   #44
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Will this work with extensions and does it bolt down from the bottom? just trying to figure out how I would mount it in my cockpit. Thanks!
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:56 PM   #45
FoxHoundcn
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Originally Posted by propeler View Post
Hmmm..... is 2.4 Nm torque.... Brunner rates their base as 4.2 Nm and people say Warthog grip is too heavy for it even with 10cm extension.
4.2Nm is the motor torque? Consider the attenuation caused by the arm length.
For example, if you put the test point in the center of the joystick, only 1.8kg is left.
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Greekbull View Post
Will this work with extensions and does it bolt down from the bottom? just trying to figure out how I would mount it in my cockpit. Thanks!
Consistent with TM warthog.

Last edited by FoxHoundcn; 08-09-2019 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:49 PM   #47
propeler
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4.2Nm is the motor torque? Consider the attenuation caused by the arm length.
For example, if you put the test point in the center of the joystick, only 1.8kg is left.
It is simple math. If you have 4.2 Nm torque on Off-axis 10cm you will get 4.2 / 100 * 10 = 42N -> 4.2 kg
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Greekbull View Post
Will this work with extensions and does it bolt down from the bottom? just trying to figure out how I would mount it in my cockpit. Thanks!
Depends on what you want from it.
It'll work with an extension, but if you put a heavy grip on top of it (like the Warthog) using a long extension (+10cm) it won't be able to hold the grip almost certainly.


Even the Brunner, which has almost twice the torque, has issues with extended grip setups.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:24 PM   #49
Berniyh
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Originally Posted by Dudikoff View Post
The Brunner seems like a safer choice, but being aimed at professionals, the software support for DirectX FFB was a problem before, not sure if that's changed?
Brunner have beta support for DCS now, but I think they implemented it with a plugin rather than HID FFB.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:53 PM   #50
Ranma13
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Originally Posted by propeler View Post
Hmmm..... is 2.4 Nm torque.... Brunner rates their base as 4.2 Nm and people say Warthog grip is too heavy for it even with 10cm extension.
Brunner rates it as 4.2 Nm peak force, they don't provide the nominal force. This one is rated at 2.94 Nm max torque and 2.35 Nm nominal. As Foxhoundcn stated, it's unknown if Brunner's value is the measured value at the stick, or if they're just going off the motor's specifications.

Also, it's not "people", it's just one person, he's using a 12cm extension, and he doesn't say it's "too heavy". His exact quote was:
Quote:
forces are strong enough to keep stick in center. but if you use a warthog metal stick and 12 cm alluminium extension like i do and fly helicopters where you trim the cyclic so it has a new center very off center then the stick dips a bit because of the weight. so i trim cyclic and then trim a bit back up with normal trim to have it keep is new center where i want it. gonna buy a lighter stick from virpil.
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