Force Feedback Joystick Coming soon - Page 4 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2019, 01:56 AM   #31
=Buckeye=
Senior Member
 
=Buckeye='s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,163
Default

Good to see it works with TM grips...now if it can handle a 15cm extension, you can count me in.

Completely fine with $1100 price tag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
VR Cockpit (link):
Custom Throttletek F/A-18C Throttle w/ Hall Sensors + Otto switches | Slaw Device RX Viper Pedals w/ Damper | VPC T-50 Base + 15cm Black Sahaj Extension + TM Hornet or Warthog Grip | Super Warthog Wheel Stand Pro | Steelcase Leap V2 + JetSeat SE

VR Rig:
Pimax 5K+ | ASUS ROG Strix 1080Ti | Intel i7-9700K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | Corsair H115i RGB Platinum | 32GB Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200 | Dell U3415W Curved 3440x1440
=Buckeye= is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 02:22 AM   #32
Reflected
3rd Party Campaign Creator
 
Reflected's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: LHDK
Posts: 2,398
Default

Over 1000 bucks just for the base? Is that some sort of a joke?
__________________


"The Big Show" Spitfire Mk.IX Campaign
"Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney" P-51D Campaign
"Jagdflieger" Bf-109K-4 Campaign
My Music
B350 Gaming Plus / Ryzen 5 1600 X @ 3,9 / MSI GeForce GTX1070 8192 / 16 GB RAM / Samsung PM961 512 SSD / MS FFB 2 / TM Warthog throttle / Saitek ProFlight pedals / Oculus Rift CV1
Reflected is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 03:15 AM   #33
AndrewW
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 522
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflected View Post
Over 1000 bucks just for the base? Is that some sort of a joke?
Works out at about AU$1750 ... and that's before GST and import duty, so that would bring it up just over $2K. Crazy money ...
__________________
Intel i7 6700K @ 4 GHz / ASUS Z170 Pro Gaming / 32 Gb G.Skill DDR4 / Gigabyte RTX2080 OC Gaming / 512 Gb Samsung 850 EVO System SSD / 512 Gb Samsung 850 EVO DCS SSD / Win 10 x64 Pro

A-10C, AV-8B, F-5E, F-86F, FC3, FW190D-9, Hawk, Ka50 2, P-51D, Spitfire, UH-1H, F/A-18C, F-14.

Nevada, Normandy, Persian Gulf.
AndrewW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 04:00 AM   #34
KlarSnow
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 44
Default

I mean, considering the original cost differential between FFB and non FFB sticks, we are square in the same brackets for way better quality.

Original MSRP for Sidewinder Precision 2 was 45$
Original MSRP for Sidewinder FFB2 was 109$

Original MSRP for Logitech g940 was 299$ and that one is notoriously sketchy in terms of reliablity and quality
Closest equivalent non FFB Hotas of the g940's time period with similar capabilities was the saitek X52 which ran between 100-150$ (no rudder pedals) and also had its share of quality issues depending on which version you got.

Then of course there is the thrustmaster warthog which is currently running 400-500 MSRP depending on where you look (new)

So double that for a niche independent producer that has all the features you could want? I'd say that sits pretty squarely where I would expect it. Quality of the build/reliability need to be verified beyond four youtube videos and some pictures, but if its of the same build quality and support of (current) virpil and VKB products, I'd say its right about where I'd expect a product with FFB to fall in this niche market.

Nobody is making a high quality NON FFB stick base for less than 3-400 bucks these days, FFB is going to exponentialy increase upon that. Look up the next best thing which is the professional level products like Brunner or any of the companies that make things for real world professional sims, you can get a one off from them, but it probly won't be as nice or as feature complete as this product will be, and it will also cost you in the 2-5 grand region for a non FFB replica. You want FFB I don't even want to know what that will cost.

Is it a lot? Yup.
Is it too much for what it is? Probly not.
Is it worth it for you to buy it? Only you can decide that.

Personally, I can absolutely afford it, it comes with an F-15 specific grip (be still my heart) and is compatible with my virpil T-50CM2 grip and inbound Tomcat grip and Warthog grip...
FFB and damping are the two things I have been severely wanting to re-enter the commercial flight stick market since I can remember, so will I purchase it? All depends on what the quality of the build, the accuracy and precision of their sensors and force feedback are, and the quality of their provided support.
For me this could very well be THE stick if it meets all those requirements, in which case 1300$ over (assumed at least) 5 plus years of use? That's not a bad deal at all.

What other commercial FFB sticks of note are out there?

Last edited by KlarSnow; 08-09-2019 at 04:16 AM.
KlarSnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 04:33 AM   #35
FoxHoundcn
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 97
Default

I believe that the vast majority of people will see the price will be in conflict, it is indeed very expensive. But we can't make a Ferrari for $100,000. Please look forward to our quality, we will show it to you later.
FoxHoundcn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 07:32 AM   #36
Dudikoff
Senior Member
 
Dudikoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Croatia / Lebanon
Posts: 2,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
It’s better than the $2000 Bruner......
The price of a new Brunner CLS-E is like $1400 USD so they're almost in the same ballpark (I presume Brunner takes of the VAT when shipped internationally?).

The Brunner seems like a safer choice, but being aimed at professionals, the software support for DirectX FFB was a problem before, not sure if that's changed?

Given the similar price and presumed similar FFB experience, my preference would go to the base which provides the DX FFB support in drivers (so that it can be used in DCS without any hacks) and which can emulate TM Warthog base.

It's expensive, but with those two conditions covered, I would start saving for it.

@FoxHoundcn: Any chance of adding the TM Warthog Stick emulation to your drivers? Basically, it would just require an extra option to change the device VID/PID values to ones used by TM Warthog stick as mentioned in the link below. I'd presume the buttons from those sticks need to be mapped to DX buttons the same way TM maps them as well.

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/...s#comment-1411
__________________
i386DX40@42 MHz w/i387 CP, 4 MB RAM (8*512 kB), Trident 8900C 1 MB w/16-bit RAMDAC ISA, Quantum 340 MB UDMA33, SB 16, DOS 6.22 w/QEMM + Win3.11CE, Quickshot 1btn 2axis, Numpad as hat. 2 FPH on a good day, 1 FPH avg.

DISCLAIMER: My posts are still absolutely useless. Just finding excuses not to learn the F-14 (HB's Swansong?).

Annoyed by my posts? Please consider donating. Once the target sum is reached, I'll be off to somewhere nice I promise not to post from. I'd buy that for a dollar!

Last edited by Dudikoff; 08-09-2019 at 01:35 PM.
Dudikoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 10:37 AM   #37
FoxTwo
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 125
Default

I'm not here to argue too much about the price, it is what it is.


But I'll say this.


Microsoft FFB joystick is like $100. Brunner's base is around $1400.


I'd just like (and was hoping for) something in the middle that's quite a bit more than $100 but less than $1400. $5-600 while is still a chunk of change and would be a lot more reasonable target for the hobbyist. Even if it meant a reduction in material or build quality (which would be expected) as long as it was able to hit the performance target. To keep with the car analogy, I don't want a Ferrarri, I want a Corvette.



Frankly as Brunner is a known quantity for what seems to be about the same amount of money I'd go with them if I felt the need to spend a stupid amount of money. Just my $0.02.
FoxTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 01:31 PM   #38
Drakoz
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 199
Default

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but mostly I'm happy with what I see. I've been on a slow burn designing my own FFB stick (just as a DIY project) and many of the things I see this stick doing is exactly what my own goals were intending to achieve. But such a stick isn't cheap even as a DIY project.

FoxHoundcn, congrats on your efforts. Here is what I think I see. I hope you can confirm if I have some of this right. Even at that price, I am very interested.

The biggest thing I see is what appears to be a well designed FFB stick but it isn't huge like the Brunner. Maybe that is good, or maybe it means this new stick is just underpowered or might have weak parts. But what I see implies a strong stick. Hence my congrats for making this small and powerful.

Why so expensive? My comments... Aside from being a niche market, the big deal is direct drive, no gears! To get that kind of smoothness and precision requires expensive (relatively powerful and high quality) motors to drive that kind of torque without gearing. They also tend to be big motors, hence why I am wondering if the force is strong enough. Compare this to the $1000-$2000 direct drive race car sim wheels that are all the rage today for serious race simmers. My guarded thoughts are they did this one right at least in the mechanical/motor design and the price does not surprise me at all.

Watch the videos carefully. The stick is moving more like a CNC machine with what appears to be proper PID feedback loops. In the video where it is vibrating like crazy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbo9...ature=youtu.be), he grabs it and moves it and when released, despite the vibration and large spring constant (fast return rate to center), it snaps back to center and does not oscillate back and forth or overshoot (other than the vibration). Do that with a Logitech G940, and it would go into a self destructive oscillation. A MS FFB2 would be better, but would still oveshoot or oscillate several times before hopefully coming to a stop. That is why these sticks have a hand sensor on them. Leaving any consumer FFB stick like the G940 or MS FFB 2 plugged in, powered up, and unattended (if you have taped over the hand sensor like most of us have), is a dangerous thing to do because a minor input could send the stick into a destructive oscillation. Ever had your cat play with your FFB stick? They will only do it once. But a better design can prevent this and not have to use a hand sensor either. It is done with PID feedback loops, good motors, and accurate position sensing.

Or in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjz5...ature=youtu.be), see how it snaps back initially kind of quickly, but decelerates as it approaches the center point. Again, this tells me the stick is using good software to control it's movements (good acceleration and deceleration along with PID feedback loops), and good hardware.

This is exactly the kind of design I've been talking about for years. The right way to do a FFB stick. Direct drive (no notchy feeling due to gearing), and proper PID feedback loops. At least that is what I hope I am seeing. Maybe I'm reading too much into the videos. But it looks good so far.



My questions... (I hope FoxHoundcn can respond to these questions.)

If the chosen motors are not high pole count motors, or maybe planetary gear motors (which means they are geared, but the gearing is built into the motor and should be very smooth), then we will still feel significant notchiness due to crossing the magnetic poles of the motor. I can't tell about this from the videos of course. That requies holding one for real. Even on the MS FFB2, being the nicest feeling consumer FFB stick ever made, you can feel the change in magnetic field as you pass through the poles of the motor. It isn't bad, but definitely noticable. It is that good on the MS FFB due to gearing (abot 80 to 1 if I remember correctly). So to have no gearing, the motor is turning only about 40 degrees (so ratio is more like 0.3 to 1). The notchiness can be very prominent unless the motors are very high pole count. For $1100, I would hope this new stick has no such notchiness.

Also, in the 2nd video linked above, it looks like the stick does not always return to the same center position. The first 2 releases, it was very precise with a perfect deceleration to center. The second two releases, it didn't look so precise, not returning to center. Maybe it is still early software or maybe I am mis-interpreting what is happening.

I assume "TM Cougar, TM Warthog" compatibility means the grips from these sticks screw on. But I assume that does not mean any kind of TM TARGET compatibility. Does this FFB stick have any software for programming buttons?

That's what I can gather from the pictures and videos. I'm looking forward to real information soon.
Drakoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 01:47 PM   #39
propeler
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 21
Default

Quote:
2.4kg (Off-axis 10cm)
Hmmm..... is 2.4 Nm torque.... Brunner rates their base as 4.2 Nm and people say Warthog grip is too heavy for it even with 10cm extension.
propeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2019, 02:18 PM   #40
jv44bubi
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 75
Default

Longing for FFB which will give a feel of actual control surfaces which push back at you. This...I will watch with great anticipation as it is the last thing after VR and a Jetseat to complete the highest fidelity home SIM possible.
jv44bubi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:38 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.