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Old 08-16-2019, 08:42 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by hideki2 View Post
Maybe not Thrustmaster as it is a huge corporation that is only interested in maximizing profits and not in satisfying needs of sim community. But how about VIRPil? They have the capital to invest and are still small enough to care about the community needs. They seem quite passionate and will for sure be able to appreciate what you have achieved!
I did a bit of research :

The VPC team comprises of designers, engineers, software developers and virtual pilots from Belarus, Russia and the UK.

So, a Chinese company associated with a Russian company for distribution seems a very natural fit indeed.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:47 PM   #92
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GAUSS, so that picture is teasing an eventual A320 grip?
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:07 AM   #93
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Even if it falls off that's not a big deal. It's not like you're going to take the hand of the cyclic in a helicopter, because even if trimmed perfectly you'll still going to do a lot of micro-input all the time.
I agree, in a real world in a helicopter like the Huey, you would not want to remove your hand from the cyclic. But this is a sim and I often have to take my hand off the stick for non-realistic reasons like using a mouse. In the Gazelle and KA-50, stability systems make this possible in the real world aircraft as well. But if the sim joystick falls forward even as little as 1mm (measured at the top of the stick, normal length), that is enough to overcome the SAS on the Gazelle or maybe the KA-50 stability systems and cause the nose to dip radically. For the Huey, force trim is practically useless with that kind of slop other than just reducing arm stress. Also, in a real world fixed wing, you absolutely take your hands off the stick or yoke all the time to mess with a map or do other stuff. That's why we trim the aircraft. I just suggested the helicopter force trim as the best way to test if there is slop.

The MS FFB2 is very good at not falling forward due to gravity. The Logitech G940 is very bad about this - even after I have applied fred41's latest firmware patch, and taken all the slack out of the mechanical parts, it still falls forward 1mm due to weak motors. But these are consumer FFB sticks made mostly of plastic. For $1100, I expect a FFB stick to be perfect at this with the grips that are compatible with it. Otherwise, I might as well just keep using my G940.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:31 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by FoxHoundcn View Post
Force Feedback Joystick Test on KA-50

https://youtu.be/34cKeTIJ4FM
FoxHoundcn, thanks for the video. This helps. Though it looks like the forced position does not match the position where you hit the button - the stick is pulling back toward center too much rather than staying where it was when you hit the button. But that is fine for now because your video clearly shows it has enough force to pull the stick back up. I'll wait for a more official release and reviews to understand more.

If you want to redo the video better to show it not moving at all when you hit the button and let the stick go, press and hold the force trim button, move the stick, then release the button and it won't (or shouldn't) jump at all. Then when you relax your hand, or take your hand off the stick, it should not fall due to gravity. This would work for the KA-50 and Huey for example, but the Gazelle is not a good choice for this test as force trim doesn't work right on the Gazelle. If you use simFFB, it will do the same thing without having to load DCS, as well as let you test other ideas like adding hydraulic feel, and friction. In fact, adding these kinds of effects through your software to your FFB stick in general would be a great feature.

You can find simFFB here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84883
Use the version posted in this post (#43) on the above forum topic - it has some extra features that are important: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...6&postcount=43

Again, I'm good for now, just trying to be helpful. I'll wait for a released product to see more. Thank you!
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:50 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
GAUSS, so that picture is teasing an eventual A320 grip?
A320 no plans for mass production at present.
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Old 08-17-2019, 01:56 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Drakoz View Post
FoxHoundcn, thanks for the video. This helps. Though it looks like the forced position does not match the position where you hit the button - the stick is pulling back toward center too much rather than staying where it was when you hit the button. But that is fine for now because your video clearly shows it has enough force to pull the stick back up. I'll wait for a more official release and reviews to understand more.

If you want to redo the video better to show it not moving at all when you hit the button and let the stick go, press and hold the force trim button, move the stick, then release the button and it won't (or shouldn't) jump at all. Then when you relax your hand, or take your hand off the stick, it should not fall due to gravity. This would work for the KA-50 and Huey for example, but the Gazelle is not a good choice for this test as force trim doesn't work right on the Gazelle. If you use simFFB, it will do the same thing without having to load DCS, as well as let you test other ideas like adding hydraulic feel, and friction. In fact, adding these kinds of effects through your software to your FFB stick in general would be a great feature.

You can find simFFB here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84883
Use the version posted in this post (#43) on the above forum topic - it has some extra features that are important: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...6&postcount=43

Again, I'm good for now, just trying to be helpful. I'll wait for a released product to see more. Thank you!
This is because of the superposition of the spring force, but it is really heavy. It needs to adjust the gain to achieve the immobile effect, but it may bring other problems. I am afraid I need to make a choice. We will also try to balance it
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Old 08-18-2019, 05:21 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Drakoz View Post
But if the sim joystick falls forward even as little as 1mm (measured at the top of the stick, normal length), that is enough to overcome the SAS on the Gazelle or maybe the KA-50 stability systems and cause the nose to dip radically.
You will pretty much never be able to achieve that, at least not with a decent force profile.
Or only with a really really lightweight stick, like paper-weight type of stick.


The problem here is not the capability of the base (there is plenty of torque in pretty much any Joystick to hold it steady), but the force curvature.
You want to have a slowly increasing force the further you move the stack away from the zero-force point.

That means that close to this position the resistive force against movement will be very low which will always cause the stick to move a bit when you release it.
The only way to change that is to use a quickly increasing force curvature, but that would result in unnecessarily heavy forces during normal use.
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:20 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Berniyh View Post
You will pretty much never be able to achieve that, at least not with a decent force profile.
Or only with a really really lightweight stick, like paper-weight type of stick.
It does take a lighter stick, but I wouldn't call it a paperweight. I took apart a Cougar grip, and placed everything inside an old TM F-22 plastic grip.

I don't have any problems with the stick falling forward, or any direction for that matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Berniyh View Post
The problem here is not the capability of the base (there is plenty of torque in pretty much any Joystick to hold it steady), but the force curvature.
You want to have a slowly increasing force the further you move the stack away from the zero-force point.

That means that close to this position the resistive force against movement will be very low which will always cause the stick to move a bit when you release it.
The only way to change that is to use a quickly increasing force curvature, but that would result in unnecessarily heavy forces during normal use.
Agreed, the base has plenty of torque. The behavior of the force getting stronger further from center/trimmed spot is good for airplanes, but not so much for helos. The helo I fly has the same force gradient 1mm from the trimmed point as full deflection.

As you stated before, though, a lighter grip on the Brunner base helps, especially if you're using an extension. I'm sure the same could be said for this new stick as well.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:02 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by heloguy View Post
I'm sure the same could be said for this new stick as well.
Definitely.
Basically what I wanted to say is that it doesn't depend on the base.
It's just a trade-off between comfortable moving forces and gravity.
And therefore obviously gets worse with added weight.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:36 AM   #100
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You will pretty much never be able to achieve that, at least not with a decent force profile. Or only with a really really lightweight stick, like paper-weight type of stick.
The issue which I am talking about isn't that you can't achieve it or do so with a good "force profile". The issue is whether a designer chooses to achieve it. The choice is mostly financial, but not impossible. From what I can see, Gauss has the right hardware - they chose to go with expensive motors, direct drive to the gimbal, and a good gimbal. What is left is the servo tuning. That is just software (a proper feedback or servo tuning loop) and time.

Again, I am assuming they got the hardware right already, but sometimes tuning a feedback loop requires changing the mechanical stuff or maybe adjustments to the electronics. You need a strong enough motor to not saturate the motor (max it out), you need to reduce slop in the mechanism (hopefully done by choosing a direct drive gimbal), and you may need to adjust the electronics (to not over drive the motors or over drive the gimbal). But the feedback loop and software can tackle most of this.

For a $200 consumer FFB stick, I don't expect such perfection - they can't achieve it because they made the choice to use inferior motors and plastic parts. The MS FFB2 almost got it right on their gimbal, but not enough buttons, some minor issues with the FFB firmware, and you can still feel the motor poles pulsing and gears grinding. For $1100, I expect the Gauss FFB stick to not have these issues. That is what you are spending the money for if you buy a Gauss (assuming they get the tuning right). Otherwise, why are we even here. No, I don't expect what I am looking for in a $200-$300 consumer level FFB stick, but for $1100, it better be able to hold a Warthog grip back against gravity. Otherwise I might as well keep using my Logtiech G940, which through custom tuning, does hold the stick back against gravity (thanks to fred41's firmware patches and some hardware modifications - but it doesn't work for all G940's - depends on the luck of the draw on the parts inside your G940).

Quote:
The problem here is not the capability of the base (there is plenty of torque in pretty much any Joystick to hold it steady), but the force curvature.
You want to have a slowly increasing force the further you move the stack away from the zero-force point.

That means that close to this position the resistive force against movement will be very low which will always cause the stick to move a bit when you release it.
The only way to change that is to use a quickly increasing force curvature, but that would result in unnecessarily heavy forces during normal use.
Yes, you are correct except I think you are thinking only in terms of a simulated spring or maybe just in terms of the simple FFB commands issued by the game. Feedback or servo loops do exactly what you are saying (an increasing force as you move away from zero), but also do what I am asking for (compensate for the heft of the mass, including gravity, and making sure the mass is moved to zero accurately and without oscillation). In a FFB stick, zero is a position that is commanded by the flight sim or game, and it commands that position using simple "go to" or "apply force" commands. This is no different than a CNC machine except that all CNC machines place a buffer between the commanding computer and the machine and that buffer is called a PID loop (a servo or feedback loop). I assume all FFB sticks do some form of feedback loop but I'm not impressed with what I have seen for consumer level sticks.

PID loops (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller) are used in everything from CNC machines to controlling the temperature of your heating and air conditioning. Advanced versions of PID loops have factors that explicitly counteract gravity while dealing with a mass moving in angular directions (just like a joystick), and they do this while maintaining accuracy within 0.0005 inch (0.001mm) or better. There is no reason why a 2 axis joystick can't do the same. It all depends on the gimbal, motors, and connection to the motors, and an accurate feedback source. For a joystick, a hall effect sensor is good enough. Beyond that, the rest is software.

A PID servo loop is an equation that simulates spring or a proportional force (P - a force that increases the further you get away from the desired "zero" point), a damping or derivative force (D - a force that counteracts excessive movement such as overshoot and oscillation), and a "kicker" or integrated force that will nudge the mass into proper zero (I - a force that increases over time at a rate determine by the error between the commanded position and the actual position).

This is some of the coolest stuff in engineering, and some of what I do for a living. It is easy to understand, a little difficult to implement, but very effective when done right. If you have any interest in DIY projects that involve AC or DC servo motors, the wiki page linked above (or a book on the subject) is a must read. One of the reasons so many DIY machines use stepper motors instead of AC or DC servo motors is because implementing a PID loop is often considered too difficult (the other is cost of course). A stepper motor doesn't need feedback (because they are commanded to move X number of steps and that is the "feedback" - they just go to X without error), but they are also not appropriate for a FFB stick, because they don't freewheel.

Last edited by Drakoz; 08-22-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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