9K330 ТOR has unrealistic self-destruction altitude.

It has been shown by evidence that TOR in the game will automatically self-destruct the launched 9M330 missile as soon as the locked target will fly 6001 meters above the TOR altitude itself.

So if TOR is placed on the terrain that is 141 meters above sea level, then the self-destruction altitude is 6142 meters.

The public specifications that the manufacturer has given for given TOR variant are next:

https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K331-Tor.html

For a a target that has a speed of 300 m/s, the TOR is capable to intercept it in 12 x 6 km area vertically.

For a target that has a speed of 700 m/s, the target envelope is smaller 5 x 4 km.

The public specification defines these two target speed limits (with a given 0.1 m2 RCS), but does not define envelopes for other parameters like a faster or slower targets.

Based to DCS own missile performance, the 9M330 has enough energy to hit targets that are flying further or higher than given 12 x 6 km parameters.

The missile is artificially restricted flying above 6000 meters altitude of the TOR itself.

If target flies at 6001 meters above TOR, it can't be engaged no matter of the target vector or speed.

So example helicopter hovering at that altitude separation above TOR and at 2 km ground distance, the TOR is incapable to guide missiles by their automatic self-destruction, even if a faster target, flying flanking attitude would be perfectly be intercepted when it flies just 2 meters below the hovering helicopter altitude, and the missile is left with a enough kinetic energy and time to fly even further and higher.

This causes unrealistic situation (no evidences provided for a such 6000 meter self-destruction mode) where targets are capable to destroy every missile TOR launches at them just by getting 6000 meters above the TOR altitude. It is enough just to visit for a one second at that altitude to cause 9M330 missile instantly explode.

Expectation is that missile would be allowed to fly by the limits of its energy state and intercept capabilities, limited only by parameters of the self-destruct command like a:

1) Missile is about to run out of battery (the missile control mechanism and computer is about to shut off, in other words the missile is going dud).

2) Missile detects it has no lift and controllability for the commands (in other words, missile is falling from the sky in uncontrolled manner)

3) The missile is commanded remotely for self-destruct by someone (target was misidentified as hostile, missile is reaching a area where it is not allowed to explode etc)

4) The computer guiding the missile calculates that missile is at closest possible distance of the target. It and target speed, vector and altitude situation can't lead to interception so best change to destroy target anymore is to explode.

5) The missile has not received any guidance for X seconds and it doesn't detect any target to lock on (IR/HOJ etc seekers)

It is unrealistic that TOR destroy its missile that has near 100% intercept capability, only because the target flies >= 6001 meters above it, but continues interception if <= 6000 meters.

The public specification doesn't define what is the missile max battery time, or timer for "no commands" etc.

Testing_TOR_radar_detection.miz

TOR_engagement_6141.trk

Attachment of the four A-10A's and one OH-58D flying at various altitudes:

OH-58D altitude 6142 meters, speed ~80 km/h (ordered 120 km/h)

Target 6143 altitude 6143 m ASL, speed 450 km/h (125 m/s). = 6002 meters above TOR.

Target 6141 altitude 6142 m ASL, speed 450 km/h (125 m/s). = 6001 meters above TOR.

Target 6141 altitude 6141 m ASL, speed 450 km/h (125 m/s). = 6000 meters above TOR = Engaged.

Target 6140 altitude 6140 m ASL, speed 450 km/h (125 m/s). = 5999 meters above TOR = Engaged.

TOR M1 material:

Target velocity 300 m/s, engagement envelope 12 x 12 km.

Target velocity 700 m/s (RCS 0.1 m2), engagement envelope 4 x 5 km.

Target velocity 600 m/s, engagement envelope 12 x 6 km.

Slower the target = higher and longer intercept capability.

300 m/s = 1080 km/h, Mach 0.87.

600 m/s = 2160 km/h, Mach 1.74.

700 m/s = 2520 km/h, Mach 2.04 (ie. MiG-21Bis engine limit Mach 2.05)

Actually all SAMs (not just TOR) in DCS will self destruct when target is out of range or above max ceiling.

Not a bug. Bignewy already confirmed this is working as ED designed.

Actually all SAMs (not just TOR) in DCS will self destruct when target is out of range or above max ceiling.

 

 

 

Not a bug. Bignewy already confirmed this is working as ED designed.

It is a bug. As the missile has no max ceiling as hard limit of 6000 meters above TOR position.

Message sent to Bignewy for the real manual that states there is no self-destruct code or mechanism for altitude.

This is a serious limitation that is insult against every DCS customer that is expecting high quality combat flight simulator. Each aircraft that is there to engage ground targets that are supposedly to be protected or at least defended by various anti-air systems is having unrealistic capability to perform air-to-ground attacks, having way too easy time to perform combats.

Eagle Dynamics and their partners spends lots of time to simulate aircrafts flight modeling for various altitudes, their engine performances and other systems to provide real limitations and benefits, that are following the difference between each aircraft in real world. Pilots has come custom that a aircrafts are not given artificial limitations for their performance or artificial benefits they shouldn't have, and some even demand very careful tweaking for those values.

What comes to Air-to-Air weaponry, the same thing applies. Even years has spent to get missiles flight performance and capabilities correct, and ED has required to make a major changes even in the past, as even today for the weapons in fighters. ED must have spent countless of hours just to get a simple iron bomb to drop properly on the ground when released from the aircraft, and then some more for various air-to-ground missiles. Mean while now ED has been heavily improving the flight and guidance modeling for most popular missiles like AIM-7 and AIM-120, where people still wait R-27 and R-73 family to be updated to match the performance charts like earlier mentioned ones.

But why is ED by purposely denying similar level of simulation for the threats that pilots face, not from the air but from the ground?

Why anyone can accept ED excuse that "Works as designed, not a bug" when higher standard is given to players who enjoy air-to-air combat in BVR as in WVR?

Why doesn't ED accept that every player who enjoy from the Air-to-Ground missions should have the same experience and the same enjoyment of challenges and success?

It is been known since the Flanker series that the DCS World engine is following the same limitations of the simplicity of the game. Step by step many things has been upgraded, but ground units are still left to decades old situation.

This thread is only about TOR, showing how unrealistic and unfair it is. This touches everyone (yes, many of us do know) and it should be one of the priority things that gets fixed. A simple and quick fix is simply to raise the artificial altitude engagement ranges and distances and base them to missile kinematic performances if no other information is shown.

We do have in the (some) SAM systems capabilities to set the max engagement ranges for targets, that allows us to create limited "NEZ Trap" but it requires humans for that. If ED would extend the artificial limitation for the missile kinematic speed capabilities by simple testing, they would improve the Air-to-Ground combat dramatically.

ED spends lots of time to add new modern era multirole fighters to game like F/A-18C and F-16C, give them new and special complex weapons like AGM-62 ER/DL Walleye II. But then every pilot is cheated by denying them to experience the similar benefits for the ground troops, that are a threat to pilots.

Someone can be fine to just accept "I don't know, but ED says it is fine "by design"" but that is simply unacceptable and insult for the whole customer base who has any anti-air units on ground when they fly at modern combat aviation era.

On this moment most of us has learn years ago the small tricks how to abuse the system for our benefits. Almost daily does someone give advice "Stay above X meters and x meters in distance and you are perfectly safe", And these artificial limitations that are only for the A-A systems are ruining the dynamic and dangerous experience that players are expecting.

And each time when the players learn that there are these hard limits just for simplicity, it is like an experience "Hey, I can fly through trees" or "The trees don't stop projectiles" kind experience. And even there years back in 2.0 beta the NTTR was first to offer a hit boxes to trees there, to be added 1.5 beta.

The manual parameters for the engagement envelopes are clear, and the TOR would almost double their threat radius if realism would be accepted to be part of the air-defense units. But as long there are customers who want to feel superior fighter pilots with enemy hands tied back, ED likely doesn't do anything and only state "Works as designed". Well the design is clearly wrong, and needs to be fixed in time completely, meanwhile simpler fixes are available.

Well this thread is not going to go for 10 pages, but ED will not change the max ceiling to a make believe one.

The newer variant of the TOR can indeed engage targets to 32K feet. But this version we have is by manufacture spec, limited to 12km range and 20000 max ceiling.

Dagger, regardless of what you say to him, his response will always be a turgid, melodramatic and foamy-mouthed wall of text written in bad English. So I'd just ignore the guy and let him stew in his own juices.

On 7/5/2020 at 9:58 AM, Fri13 said:

It is a bug. As the missile has no max ceiling as hard limit of 6000 meters above TOR position.

yes it is a bug, was introduced ~ 1-2 years ago, I even made bug-report ~1 year ago about it (check my forum profile for the thread, I recently replied in it.)

On 7/5/2020 at 9:58 AM, Fri13 said:

Message sent to Bignewy for the real manual that states there is no self-destruct code or mechanism for altitude.

Awesome!!!! What did he reply?