noob education needed here... what can the SA-342M do?

i look forward to a bubble type helicopter...

excited for quality work, agile helicopter..

a little disappointed that it doesnt have a moving map (no biggie) and can not buddy laze..

so this gazelle version only has anti-tank weapon? as in no guns / or AA missiles ( i have read the sticky, appears only to be HOT3 weapon only)

anti tank vehicles much needed!

i really hope to see a multiseat capability in the future where there is a HOT3 missile operator and pilot...

i am curious about the 20+ missions, like to see what this helicopter is capable of...

so far i guess it will be great for leisure heli flying, anti-tank, and taking pictures (recon with out data link)?

this will be a first day buy for me, but im just wondering hot this helicopter compares to the Ka50, other than gazelle being more agile... i am a multiplayer guy, and im trying to think how this helicopter will serve its purpose in current or future online servers.. (super excited to have a missile operator copilot in the future)

THIS CAN BE THE...

WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH THE GAZELLE thread... ;)

You had said them already, no more need to add up...

This is of probably no help, but what you probably shouldn't do with it is attack newer Russian tanks equipped with ATGMs. Speaking from experience in the KA-50, they shoot back at pretty decent range. You might have to fire at the HOTs maximum range and even then, they'll probably still reach you. Even worse, dodging is going to be super hard while you have a missile of your own in the air.

I'll totally try though.

Since the Gazelle is equipped with a RWR and the KA50 not, using a combined force of KA50's and one or two Gazelles for SEAD comes to mind. Triangulate positions with the RWR, outside of the SAM range and have the KA50's take out the target.

Hmmm, I'm going to make a mission with this, should be fun!

Gazelle was a low cost tank plinker. It would go and hunt for tank and if a few are lost..... :music_whistling:

ground fire can take it down so anything beyond tank destruction on feba is quite tricky, except on the usual 99% of DCS missions that does not feature a frontline neither infantry. :lol:

Guys, you need to read about Gazelle employment in the 2011 Libyan war.

Night missions from Mistral-class helo carriers, in close cooperation with Tiger helos.

The Tigers engaged light-armored targets with their 30mm gun, and provided designation to the Gazelles to engage heavy-armored targets with HOT missiles.

The combined kill report is just IMPRESSIVE, several hundreds of targets destroyed and a large variety of them: tanks, armored vehicles, trucks, AAA, artillery, infantry, etc...

The kill-per-sortie ratio is like 10 times higher than that of the air force and navy fighters engaged in the same campaign.

They got AAA hits but no loss, which was also an amazing achievement as pre-engagement evaluations rated the risk as very high and forecasted the loss of at least one or two helos.

A great tribute to the machines, and to those who man them.

They literally invented a new doctrine for combat helo employment.

I am just waiting that Black Sea map gets the tree collision model implemented when updating it to DCS 2.0.

Otherwise ground units and attack helicopters are still useless when we can't fly behind trees and avoid wired guided missiles, laser beam riders, radars, thermal imagine etc.

It would as well make the pop-up attacks possible and effective tactics as AI wouldn't be able see where we fly.

But same time we wouldn't be able see where the radar is, or where someone is lasering us until getting LOS.

Improve the AI so they ain't 360 degree all seeing gods and add reaction times and moral and attack helicopters changes to survive and operate on the field would increase multiple times.

Now I just am little afraid that firing those HOT3 missiles is just playing around Soviet T-tanks that has 4000-5000m engagement range with laser beam raiders and HOT3 has only a 4300m range that makes it very challenging to get first the missile out if the AI can react and engage same time or even sooner.

Now I just am little afraid that firing those HOT3 missiles is just playing around Soviet T-tanks that has 4000-5000m engagement range with laser beam raiders and HOT3 has only a 4300m range that makes it very challenging to get first the missile out if the AI can react and engage same time or even sooner.

just means we have to work as a team, and work harder and stealthier.. lol

but i really hope that multi seat comes too, i think pilot focus on flying and tow operator focused on targets will be more effective in the team work, combined with other multiseat multiplayer operators..

Attack helicopters are just fine with things as is, though I agree that collideable trees and some AI additions would be nice. The thing is, the Gazelle is not an attack helicopter. It's an old civilian light helicopter with a few man portable AT missiles duct taped to the sides of it. It was never intended to do what an AH-64 or Ka-50 can. Much like the UH-1 and MiG-21, the Gazelle will require lower threat missions to be effective. It isn't something that's going to feel at home with A-10C's and Ka-50's. It belongs with the older aircraft facing less capable opponents.

Much like the UH-1 and MiG-21, the Gazelle will require lower threat missions to be effective. It isn't something that's going to feel at home with A-10C's and Ka-50's. It belongs with the older aircraft facing less capable opponents.

I respectfuly disagree. The Gazelle and Bo-105 ATGM platforms were specifically introduced to engage Warsaw Pact armor rolling through Germany (and France if things turned really bad). As such they were expected to fight in the highest threat environment imaginable. In order to survive in such an environment, these helicopters relied on ambush tactics.

Therfore it will be absolutely critical for these helicopters in DCS that ground unit AI is enhanced by realistic visual detection factors and reaction times in order to exploit tactical surprise in ambushes.

I respectfuly disagree. The Gazelle and Bo-105 ATGM platforms were specifically introduced to engage Warsaw Pact armor rolling through Germany (and France if things turned really bad). As such they were expected to fight in the highest threat environment imaginable. In order to survive in such an environment, these helicopters relied on ambush tactics.

 

Therfore it will be absolutely critical for these helicopters in DCS that ground unit AI is enhanced by realistic visual detection factors and reaction times in order to exploit tactical surprise in ambushes.

We also need less effecient ground units, like trucks with .30 cal or .50 cal machineguns. Currently pretty much everything is armored and armed with at least a 20mm gun.

I respectfuly disagree. The Gazelle and Bo-105 ATGM platforms were specifically introduced to engage Warsaw Pact armor rolling through Germany (and France if things turned really bad). As such they were expected to fight in the highest threat environment imaginable. In order to survive in such an environment, these helicopters relied on ambush tactics.

 

Therfore it will be absolutely critical for these helicopters in DCS that ground unit AI is enhanced by realistic visual detection factors and reaction times in order to exploit tactical surprise in ambushes.

Exactly. The super AI of DCS ground units is my biggest concern for these two modules, since the range of the HOT missile is not that great. So hiding and suprising the enemy is VERY important to be a successful Gazelle/BO-105 pilot.

This video gives a great example how these helicopters are to be employed in the anti-tank role:

It is in german, but the pictures speak for themselves. Just one important thing to notice: The tanks itself are so loud that it is impossible for the tank crews to hear the helicopters.

To make it short: You stay low (very low!) and hidden until you commence the attack. Then you pop up quickly, take the shot and gtfo :D

But this is not possible in DCS with the current AI.

Agree, that could turn out to be a major problem for everyone trying to actually do in the sim what those helis did in real life.

- AI spots threats too quickly

- AI reacts to threats too quickly

- AI can see and shoot through trees, the player can't.

Those combined make attack heli flying in DCSW a bit.... meh.

Attack helicopters are just fine with things as is, though I agree that collideable trees and some AI additions would be nice. The thing is, the Gazelle is not an attack helicopter. It's an old civilian light helicopter with a few man portable AT missiles duct taped to the sides of it. It was never intended to do what an AH-64 or Ka-50 can. Much like the UH-1 and MiG-21, the Gazelle will require lower threat missions to be effective. It isn't something that's going to feel at home with A-10C's and Ka-50's. It belongs with the older aircraft facing less capable opponents.

Helicopters are not fine. None of the helicopters are fine, neither is the Combined Arms (read every ground unit) and neither is any CAS aircraft or even fighters. The whole "Combat" part is broken in the DCS.

In reality you wouldn't be playing around the max ranges of the vehicles firing ranges. You wouldn't be flying with ultimate RWR that can pick every possible radar out there even when they are not pointing at you.

You would not see ground vehicles behind trees, lock them automatically and then expect your missiles to track them perfectly.

And when you fly you would have cover from every three and even bush instead just from ground shape and buildings.

Currently every CAS pilot has easy job as they don't need to avoid SAM or any other AA as they should. They can engage targets easily that should be impossible to be tracked or locked on. Helicopter pilots can't fly as they should be able, instead they need to move around the max ranges of the ground units or they get fired upon trough trees.

The Gazelle is great for what it is, the problem is that its features can't be used as long the AI is more like a GOD and there is no terrain coverage and concealment for anyone.

The Combined Arms is not so useful as it would be if the vehicles would have difficulties to move in the forest and would have cover as well from the forests as should have.

Flying a helicopter that gets shot down by a ultimate commander/loader in the T-55 with iron sights firing 12.7mm everywhere with near perfect aiming. Even older BTR kind vehicles firing 14.5mm all over fast moving targets etc.

There is just so many things broken because the Black Sea map is just like NTTR is, "just a desert" without cover.

And helicopters like Gazelle requires to have lots of good cover and concealment that it can operate correctly.

They got AAA hits but no loss

I heard no hits (from the then COMALAT).

I am just waiting that Black Sea map gets the tree collision model implemented when updating it to DCS 2.0.

My understanding is that this is not gonna happen.

I heard no hits (from the then COMALAT).

 

 

My understanding is that this is not gonna happen.

They are considering it. Nothing is sure can they do it while they upgrade map from terrain 3 to terrain 4 (or 4>5?) With all the roads and new meshups. Or do they consider to make other time as an payware for those who wants it as updated one.

I wish that it could be made while updating as it shouldn't be something that is made by hand tree by tree.

My understanding is that this is not gonna happen.

That's how I remember it as well. I think Wags said that it would require a complete rebuild of the terrain or seomthing along those lines.

Agree, that could turn out to be a major problem for everyone trying to actually do in the sim what those helis did in real life.

- AI spots threats too quickly

- AI reacts to threats too quickly

- AI can see and shoot through trees, the player can't.

 

Those combined make attack heli flying in DCSW a bit.... meh.

And this makes as well for every CAS pilot same thing.

Like their RWR can detect radar emissions from a units that ain't even having LOS to them because there are trees just next to the AA unit.

That's how I remember it as well. I think Wags said that it would require a complete rebuild of the terrain or seomthing along those lines.

I only remember that Wags said that they consider it if it is viable for the time spent to that, either free or as later payware. Not denying that it is no way ever, but just that there is a possibility.

And that change would make black sea map more viable as it would change the DCS once to much closer combat simulator than it has been for now.

That would just benefit all the helicopter and CAS (A-10C and Su-25) modules as every module that has A-G radars too by making their flying more challenging.

The British army used gazelle's as anti tank helo's but I never saw one with the missiles attached. Theywere used in Northern Ireland and the Falklands to insert troops but mainly, from the little I saw, to be tactical taxi's for Senior Officers. Did an exercise in 78 where they inserted ground base FAC's and recovered them over in the Hereford area. It was great fun watching the FAC ply their trade bringing the fast jets onto targets. It was a transport mainly on that one, still a joy to be in

I do not see these God like AI that everyone talks about. They are tough no doubt, but I fly low and I use the terrain. in Georgia I can spot aircraft earlier than they can spot me because I am behind something and exposing the minimal amount of my airframe for them to see. I can chose whether I avoid them or engage them. If I engage, I muster every advantage I can because I have time (Track IR user and no "scaling"). It really works; stay low.

In the Kamov I can take tank groups at 4 Kliks with Vikhs.... they all die... eventually and it ain't no thang! it just requires a fella to be arsed to fly the machine and fly it real low.

If I fly high or if I laze targets when I have a poor advantage, then for sure they are instantly aware of me and my bearing real fast. Deservedly so they are on me like a ton of Sh"t.

In Georgia I pop up and attack only when there are smooth hill tops or buildings to protect me, Forests are avoided. I simply adapt and overcome the problems I face.

In NTTR it is different.

Every dry old crappy river bed is my pal!

Every undulating crevice in the plains or mountains is my buddy!

Every sparse woodland aligned for defense is my lover!

Every building my savior!

If the Libyan desert worked for the French Gazelles then the NTTR map will sure as hell work for me in a Gazelle!

DCS NTTR is the beginning for us chopper guys... it is the perfection that we want and it is starting right now. Strap in and get practicing because I tell ya what, that sparse old cruddy desert has got a lot of pain to teach a pilot heading for the Hell that is Europe.

In some ways I feel sorry for jet/plane guys, they just do not truly understand the extent of the revolution NTTR is. I guess for them it is pretty skies and pictures and perhaps that statement is truer to reality than we think.

The current AI in DCS leaves a lot to be desired. Near perfect accuracy against air targets. They have no concept of suppressive fire. Vehicles are either alive or dead, there's no disabling them. It really deserves some solid attention from the devs.

And this makes as well for every CAS pilot same thing.

 

Like their RWR can detect radar emissions from a units that ain't even having LOS to them because there are trees just next to the AA unit.

I realize this is a bit apples and oranges, but in my experience, radar detectors in vehicles can pick up police radar well outside of LOS. A few trees isn't gonna stop us from detecting it, mountains certainly do.

Just to add to the list, stealth needs to come into it. You simply must be able to sneak up and ambush a tank or enemy vehicle, especially while your are flying these light helicopters.(and other AT helicopters).

The enemy tank should act like it doesn't know you are there, until you have revealed enough of your helicopter for long enough. Especially while the tank is moving (perhaps a higher chance of being spotted if the commander is observing with binoculars).

You should be able to get very close with the tank ignoring you, as long as most of your aircraft is behind terrain or cover.

The AI should consider something along the lines of:

1. Direct Line of Sight

2. Distance between enemy and player helicopter (perhaps infantry could "hear" you if close enough, but not moving tank unless very very close).

3. How much of helicopter can be seen vs how much is in cover. So you can peak/recce safely if not too close.

4. Lighting/Shadow and weather conditions. (less light and visibility, the harder you are to see, stay in the shadows of buildings and mountains if you can).

5. Background contrasting. (if there is nothing but sky behind you, then you are easier to see, if there is a mountain/building/trees behind you then you blend in more).

6.Distance between you and your background. (if the mountain behind you is further, than you blend in less).

If all of those steps above succeed, only then should the enemy tank react in a combat manner. And that is if the tank is currently "looking" for targets. Because, perhaps the crew are chatting, or looking for mines, checking maps etc etc.

Once spotted:

7. Reaction time, depending on difficulty setting, and perhaps even enemy unit veterancy.

8. Aim/Accuracy should depend on difficulty setting, and perhaps enemy unit veterancy.

9. Slightly randomised values for all above, to keep things feeling organic. Perhaps the crew is having a bad day, or maybe they are very alert.

Then when you hide, and move to another location, the AI would have to go through these steps again, to spot you. The only difference would be that it would search more often, since it knows you must be somewhere. And they would also know what they are looking for, so it would be slightly easier to spot you.

Without something like that, these modules will be just a matter of hover near the max range of the missile and firing.

- AI spots threats too quickly

- AI reacts to threats too quickly

- AI can see and shoot through trees, the player can't.

AI can probably say the same about us :

-Enlarged model give their position away up to 80km

-They have no ground clutter

-They don't have multispectral smoke

-They can't take defensive position

I stopped playing Ka-50 and A-10C because it was really boring, just doing missile delivery on defenseless targets. :P More chances failling in Train Simulator...

Gazelle gonna bring some challenge tho, especially the range. But remember that when you exchange missile with a tank - If it dies before his missiles reach you, his missiles loses tracking.