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My two cents on F-16 Turn Rate and the EM Diagrams


TheBigTatanka

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So, the 9g Hornet upgrades are very interesting. Does it still have the same acceleration performance? or perhaps slightly less since it required structural upgrades which increase weight?

 

At any rate here's something I found this morning, very insightful. Written by "Mover" C.W. Lemoine, his series of articles called Hornet vs Viper. He's one of the guys who's flown both and his take on both. Regarding performance in the AA arena - From part 4:

 

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/hornet-vs-viper-part-four/

 

 

"I like to refer to the Hornet as a “Gentleman’s Dogfighter.” It’s limited to 7.5Gs, which is a far cry from the Viper’s 9 (Sometimes more with the Block 30’s analog flight control system that will give you up to 9.3 or more if you overshoot the limiter). Dogfighting with the Hornet requires finesse and an above average ability to visualize the jet in three dimensions and manage your energy state. It is highly maneuverable, with the ability to point the nose virtually anywhere. It is a lot of fun to fight, but hard to master against a similar aircraft.

The downside to the Hornet is its power limitation. It is severely underpowered, and although you can get slow and threaten other aircraft with the nose, doing so can leave you without follow-on options. It is very unforgiving of pilots who ham-fist and bleed away all their energy."

 

"The Viper is much harder on your body. Although the ATAGS G-suit has made significant groundwork in reducing the effects of 9Gs, your 20lb head still puts 180 lbs of force on your neck while fighting. With no pylons or external fuel tanks, the F-16 in full afterburner can hold 9Gs, and even accelerate while pulling 9Gs at lower altitudes. This requires throttle modulation to stay in the appropriate airspeed band to maximize turn rate and minimize turn radius. There’s nothing worse than to be pulling 9Gs, accelerating, and losing because you’re getting too fast."

 

This last quote is currently not a problem in the DCS Viper! LOL :D I suppose it would be nice if it were! Let's get that performance tuned!

 

Last quote, very intriguing.

 

"So head to head, who wins? It depends on the type of fight.

A good Hornet pilot will take the fight downhill, try to get slow, and use his superior maneuverability to bleed the Viper down into his wheelhouse – a close-in knife fight at slow speed. If he tries to take the fight uphill or flat, the F-16’s superior rate and thrust to weight ratio will prevail.

Given a choice head to head, I would probably choose the F-16. Although I really love fighting in the Hornet against other Hornets, there is no worse feeling than being bled down on energy and out of options. I fought several F/A-18Cs, F/A-18E/Fs, and CF-18s when I flew the F-16, and I never lost. Aside from the F-22, I really don’t think there’s a better dogfighting aircraft out there. A lot of thrust is good, more is better. A clean F-16 is just a rocket ship. That’s just personal preference, of course. Others who have flown both may have vastly differing opinions.

Well, that concludes my comparison of the Hornet vs Viper. Hope you’ve enjoyed it. Take my opinions for what they’re worth – just one fighter pilot’s opinion of two very similar jets. The F-16 was my first love, so I’m obviously a bit biased, but I think they’re both great aircraft. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to fly them both."

 

I like how he does say, that others who've flown both may have different opinions. Wisdom from someone who understands that one experience is not all there is. Really good articles. Recommend reading them if you haven't.


Edited by 000rick000

Cheers,

 

Rick

CSEL\CMEL\IFR

Certified Airplane Nut

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So, the 9g Hornet upgrades are very interesting. Does it still have the same acceleration performance? or perhaps slightly less since it required structural upgrades which increase weight?

 

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/hornet-vs-viper-part-four/

 

This last quote is currently not a problem in the DCS Viper! LOL :D I suppose it would be nice if it were! Let's get that performance tuned!

 

I like how he does say, that others who've flown both may have different opinions. Wisdom from someone who understands that one experience is not all there is. Really good articles. Recommend reading them if you haven't.

 

Hard to tell about weight growth due the reinforced structure since every lot is different...

https://www.vtg.admin.ch/en/einsatzmittel/luft/fa18-hornet.html

According departure weight clean in above link she is even lighter than the dcs f-18... (Dcs: 36445lbs, linked specs for max to-weight clean: 35’500lbs).

 

Great articles.

 

Training rules do not allow dogfights below hard deck (5000ft, 10000ft...) in rw. In the typical dogfight piece of skies between 10kft and 20kft even the latest and probably heaviest usaf f16 block 50 seems to have a bstr advantage over the f18.

 

Using the haf suppl. charts, correcting for gw-difference, we can compare the b50 bstr to the gao numbers for the f18epe (12.3 dgs: 15kft, 33325lbs, 58% fuel, 2a9+2a120). I get something between 13.1dgs (di=0, 24350lbs, 58%f)and 11.8dgs (di=50, 26740lbs). Interpolated for di20 I would expect best str ~ 12.6 dgs for the b50 (25660lbs).

At that altitude, that fuel and wp load, the b50 has probably an adv of~ 0.3dgs if the charts, figures, dcs weights and my read outs are correct...

That’s for the heart of the training area heights...

 

Checking for sea level, where many simmers like to fight, the picture looks different: gao for epe: 19.2 dgs, 33325lbs, 2a9+2a120, 58% fuel.

For the b 50 I get something between 19.2 (di=0, 24’350lbs, 58%fuel) and 17.9 (di=50, 26740lbs, 58%fuel). Iteration for di20, 25660lbs and I would expect best str to be ~ 18.7dgs for the b50.

So the epe seems to have an adv. of ~ 0.5dgs with those specifications at sl, even if she stays within the 7.5 g limit.

 

And since dcs f16 burns internal fuel faster on ab than the dcs f18 does, she starts the fight with more fuel (weight) on airquake servers. Makes it all worse.

 

But the b50 has an huge acceleration, speed and climb advantage (-30% from break release to m1.4 @ 50kft)

 

Ps: dcs f-16 does accelerate in a 9g turn at sea level di=50, 26’000lbs above m0.8. That’s spot on.


Edited by Figaro9
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Figaro, thanks for doing that comparative work, that is awesome.

 

Really appreciate everyone's thought process on this. I'm also glad to see a real world viper guy on here mention the difficulty of using certain gameplans because of Gloc limitations.

 

Here's hoping we get some real feedback from ED on this upcoming patch. I hope the mature and thoughtful nature of this thread has been helpful to the software engineers.

 

Press!

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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That's the true meaning of [Correct as is] :music_whistling:

ED cannot, and will not make Hornet or Falcon to be simulated by accurate flight modeling. They have agreed to make them so that they can not be used to be tested for true performance.

 

- Since my previous message was deleted with the motivation of "trolling and quote" I rewrite it in another way in the hope that it will go well this time.

I happened to read this "truth" other times on the forum, and i don't like it, i find it a fanboy idea and i think i have the right to reply -

 

Where did you hear this "truth"? what makes you think that ED has a duty to censor part of the FM? Who should they hide this from?

From "enemy"? What make you (all) think that this "enemy" is unable to reverse engineering and procure more information than ED can imagine?

 

The answer is no, there is nothing to hide, there is no danger of running into classified data.

 

So the results are two:

 

1)The official data are busted and the reverse engineering of the ED is correct.

2)The ED FM is simply not accurate.

 

There is no need to find fancy excuses :)


Edited by Expert
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Guys, thanks to all who participated in this thread in meaningful ways, bringing in a competent understanding of how to read EM charts and thinking about the various BFM game plans suitable to the current WIP state of the sim's various flight models. It's been a good discussion, but I don't want this digressing into a discussion of what ED can or can't do and why.

 

I think real world stuff should be kept real world. As a USAF and airline pilot, I appreciate DCS as a way to fly stuff I don't get to real world, and as a way to keep my hand-flying skills sharp... But I would never ever expect a commercial / entertainment sim to be at the same level as a training sim. It gets close, which is super cool... But we need to manage our expectations, and ask why we have the expectations we do.

 

Again, this discussion was great on how to use EM charts, how ED could adjust things to give us more realism, and how to use gameplans and BFM to our advantage based on the data we currently have in sim. There are some sharp minds in this community.

 

I think the discussion has probably run its course now. To the moderators, I'm the same guy who opened the thread (Big Tatanka and Skyblazer1 are the same guy -- I have an app on my phone for forums, and can't figure out how to merge it with my desktop). Thanks for your patience as we hashed this stuff out.

 

Cheers,

 

Dances

 

 

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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