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Q&A Spitfire Mk XIV


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Do you guys have access to the BBMF up at RAF Conningsby? I was shown round it the other week they've got various spits (early mid and late) as well as the oldest flying hurricane coupled with the last hurricane to come of the production line. Obviously you guys aren't going to completely base your models off their aircraft because you have access to the Duxford collection but it could be useful to look at another example of a variant being developed in the future.

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Yeah, I'd forgotten all about the ED version of the mk 9 as I've not heard anything about it in a long time, wasn't sure they were still doing the DCS WW2 thing. Seems they are anyways although not sure how far along they are

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Do you guys have access to the BBMF up at RAF Conningsby? I was shown round it the other week they've got various spits (early mid and late) as well as the oldest flying hurricane coupled with the last hurricane to come of the production line. Obviously you guys aren't going to completely base your models off their aircraft because you have access to the Duxford collection but it could be useful to look at another example of a variant being developed in the future.

 

We're already in discussion with BBMF to do a pack.

Can't confirm which aircraft at this stage.

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  • 11 months later...

Yes Bulldogs were used for cadet flights after the Chippies were sold.

I worked on both at RAF Newton for 7 AEF and East Midlands University Air Sqn. up until the point where all the Chippies were sold off and came through us... Sad days. :(

 

IF There was ever a DCS Chipmunk, it would HAVE to simulate cadets A: Throwing up everywhere. B: cadets pulling the Canopy jettison handle. C: Cadets stepping on the flap and putting a huge dent in the Canvas. Also it would need to correctly simulate the 3 out of 5 cartridges in the starter not working properly because they were stored in a damp out building and the pilot tugging too dhard and pulling off the brass ring from the starter cable, and last but not least the complete and utter total loss oil system of the Gypsy Major engine.... IE it ALL leaks out after about an hour.

 

If they ever do a groundcrew sim as part of Combined Arms.....

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  • 4 weeks later...

As far as I know there is few evidence of 21lb being used operationally and only in the last weeks of the war. The 18lb, in my opinion, will still be a pure brute that will give The D9 and the K4 a very bad time if they try to mix in.

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As far as I know there is few evidence of 21lb being used operationally and only in the last weeks of the war. The 18lb, in my opinion, will still be a pure brute that will give The D9 and the K4 a very bad time if they try to mix in.

 

I was reading about this, there is evidence it was used, and not that late:

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

 

No. 610 Squadron's Operations Record Book shows that by July 14, 1944 their Spitfire XIVs were undergoing modifications to operate at +21 boost

 

In theory the engine was even rated for +25 lbs, but apparently that wasn't used during the war.

 

No evidence has yet been found that +25 lbs boost was employed in service by Spitfire XIV squadrons prior to VE day. Even at +25 lbs. the Spitfire XIV still fell short of the sea level performance of the Tempest V and highly boosted Mustangs. There is clear documentation that 2nd TAF Spitfire XIVs had their Griffon engines set to +21 lbs boost whilst operating with 150 Grade Fuel.

 

The references they provide look pretty good, as far as my uneducated eye can tell :-)


Edited by Tomsk
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Sorry, I forgot to indicate I was meaning operational non anti V1 duties.

I think it is hard to find evidence of that kind of boost other than when chasing V1s. Obviously that doesn't mean it wasn't used as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

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Sorry, I forgot to indicate I was meaning operational non anti V1 duties.

I think it is hard to find evidence of that kind of boost other than when chasing V1s. Obviously that doesn't mean it wasn't used as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

 

Oh interesting, the site I linked to seemed to suggest it was operationally.

 

Flt. Lt. Derek Rake of No. 41 Squadron recalled:

It was always comforting to know that the increased power of the Griffon would enable me to turn inside and/or out climb a Bf 109 or Fw 190. We did find, however, that the latest Fw 190D could get away from us by rolling on its back and going vertically downwards. In an attempt to combat this manoeuvre, we were allowed to increase the boost to +21

 

Not that I'm saying that's definitely right. It's hard to know what really happened so long ago :-)

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Also when they say "Through the gate" that appears to mean using the boost.

 

F/Lt. H. Walmsley of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 13 March, 1945:

 

I was flying as Spinner Blue 1. We had passed South of Munster heading east at 11,000 feet when I saw 8 plus aircraft flying South at 2,500 feet. I called up and went down after them, intercepting over Hamm, and, finding that they were long nosed FW 190's, engaged the one on the extreme left. He broke down and proceeded due East at zero feet. After chasing him for 10 miles, firing occasional short bursts, I hit him around the cockpit with several cannon shells and quite a bit of debris came away. The range was 200-250 yards; angle off 5°. He pulled up steeply to port and the pilot baled out at 1,500 feet, the aircraft crashing close to where the pilot landed and lay on the ground without releasing his parachute. Both the e/a and I had long range tanks, neither of which were dropped, and at no time did I have to go "through the gate" in order to stay on his tail. 85

 

F/Sgt Clay of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 13 March, 1945:

 

I was flying as Spinner Blue 3 at 11,000 feet South of Munster, heading East, when F/Lt Walmsley led us down on 8 long-nosed FW 190's which were flying South at 2,500 feet. I had no time to jettison my tank, but the Hun I attacked dropped his as I was closing in from behind and slightly below. He started to weave gently when I was about 500 yards behind. I opened fire at 400 yards closing right in; he turned sharply to port and I followed, still firing. Then I had to slide over to port to avoid hitting him as he slowed up very suddenly. His hood flew off and his aircraft was wallowing badly, out of control. We were now down to 700 feet and suddenly he nosed straight in and blew up in a railway siding in or very near HAMM. I could not see my strikes owing to a sheet of oil which covered my windscreen as soon as I went through the gate. My ringsight was almost obscured and sighting was difficult.

Immediately after the E/A crashed, I was hit in the port wing by a cannon shell from a 190 which appeared on my tail with his No.2. I broke hard to port and they did not press home their attack, so I returned to base. I claim one e/a destroyed. 86

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

 

Also this paragraph can be taken as +21 was used from July onwards...

 

The RAE commented on the Griffon 65 engine in Tech. Note No. Eng. 316 from July 1944 "Due to main bearing troubles, these engines are at present limited to + 21 lb./sq.in. boost pressure although they will be capable of operation at +25 lb./sq.in. boost pressure in the future". 17 The same report gives 393 mph as the maximum speed at 3,000 feet altitude whilst operating at +21 lb boost. This extrapolates to 377 mph at sea level. Rolls-Royce obtained 366 mph at sea level in June 1944. 18 Calculated estimates indicate that actual performance was probably somewhere between the two, or approximately 370 mph at sea level. For comparison, the first production Spitfire 21 with a Griffon 61 engine operating at +21 lbs. boost achieved 368 mph at sea level, although it should be noted that the report stated "As the aircraft had been engaged on a long programme of tests, both at this Establishment and at the Contractor's works, the external condition had deteriorated considerably when the performance trials were made. The paintwork was chipped and some filler had worked out of the joints in the wing leading edge." 19 Absolute maximum speed at full throttle height would only have increased a few mph with the increase from +18 to +21 lb. boost. No. 610 Squadron's Operations Record Book shows that by July 14, 1944 their Spitfire XIVs were undergoing modifications to operate at +21 boost. 20


Edited by Krupi

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Project IX Cockpit

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Just for the record +25 is not in consideration

 

90% chance 21 will make release, 10% it will be 18lbs

 

Pman

 

Good to hear, personally I think that given that we are getting a december 1944-1945 version it is understandable that it is +21, were the bubble canopy versions restricted to +18 at any point?

Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit

Project IX Cockpit

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Great news concerning 21 lbs. To be honest, this Spit is about the only thing keeping me interested in DCS at the moment, and it may even convince some of my WWII based squad mates from other flight sims to get interested in DCS.

 

Good luck with the project.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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Also when they say "Through the gate" that appears to mean using the boost.

 

It was my understanding that "boost" simply referred to the amount of supercharging being used, in relation to the throttle lever setting - up to the maximum boost (as referred to in previous posts).

 

The "gate" was just that. A gate, or notch, in the path the throttle lever is moved fore-and-aft. This is usually at climbing boost, and allows the pilot to find that throttle setting by feel (rather like a detent in a flight-sim throttle). Going "through the gate" was to literally move the throttle lever slightly to the side through the notch/gate and forward to engage a higher lever of boost - up to the above maximum boost.

 

(AP 1732b - Advanced Flying Training, 1945 reprint - p.16)

My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

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Good to hear, personally I think that given that we are getting a december 1944-1945 version it is understandable that it is +21, were the bubble canopy versions restricted to +18 at any point?

 

Yes some of them were, although it was mainly due to supply and longevity concerns. But some were limited to all 3 -- 18, 21 and 25

 

Pman

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It was my understanding that "boost" simply referred to the amount of supercharging being used, in relation to the throttle lever setting - up to the maximum boost (as referred to in previous posts).

 

The "gate" was just that. A gate, or notch, in the path the throttle lever is moved fore-and-aft. This is usually at climbing boost, and allows the pilot to find that throttle setting by feel (rather like a detent in a flight-sim throttle). Going "through the gate" was to literally move the throttle lever slightly to the side through the notch/gate and forward to engage a higher lever of boost - up to the above maximum boost.

 

(AP 1732b - Advanced Flying Training, 1945 reprint - p.16)

 

 

'Buster' means to fly as fast as possible and 'Gate' is the next level up meaning to apply maximum power (throttle fully forward through the 'gated' extra emergency boost power level, as in maximum possible boost power for the aircraft).

 

In the example below the controller is giving advice to the wing leader regarding buster and gate, but more often it was an order given by the leader. It is mentioned by pilots in a number of books I have read.

 

This from page 222 of a book named Wing Leader, Jonnie Johnson by Penguin Books:

 

'Greycap to Kenway. Airborne with twelve Spits. What's the form?'

 

'Kenway to Greycap. Bandits active five miles south of Caen at low level. Please investigate.'

 

'Greycap to Kenway. Roger. Any definite height on bandits?'

 

'Kenway to Greycap. No, but they're below 5,000 feet. Out.'

 

Note: 'Greycap' is Wing Commander 'Johnnie' Johnson, having just taken off in Normandy leading a squadron of 2nd TAF Spitfire Mk IX aircraft of the Canadian Wing.

'Kenway' is 83 Groups forward mobile Group Control Centre 483, callsign Kenway.

 

This from page 156 of the same book:

 

'Greycap from Grass-seed. Twenty plus bandits climbing up inland. Steer 140.'

'Greycap. Bandits have crossed below you at 15,000 feet. Port on to 310. Buster.'

'Greycap. Bandits now seven miles ahead. 5,000 feet below. Gate.'

'Greycap. Another strong formation of bandits behind you. About eight miles. Exercise caution.'

 

Jonnie goes on to write: “Then I saw our quarry. One bunch of twelve 190s just below us and a mile ahead, and a further bunch of twelve 190s well out on the starboard side. It was a golden opportunity not to miss. Height, sun and surprise in our favour...”

 

Note: The situation on the first message from Grass-seed is that his Canadian Wing of Spitfires Mk IX aircraft had just crossed the French coast just south of Le Touquet at 24,000 feet, having taken off from England on a mission to France. 'Grass-seed' is the senior controller of a radar station in England.

'Buster' means to fly as fast as possible and 'Gate' is the next level up meaning to apply maximum power (throttle fully forward through the 'gated' extra emergency boost power level, as in maximum possible boost power for the aircraft).

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Below is an extract from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(early_Merlin-powered_variants)

 

It provides the origin of the term used by RAF pilots 'through the gate' or shortened to 'gate' which was actually a wire gate that had to be broken to gain emergency boost power.

Although future mechanisms for engaging emergency boost power may have changed (no actual wire gate to break), the term 'gate' or 'through the gate' stuck as parlance among pilots for emergency boost power. The pilots term 'gate' in this instance may easily get confused with technical talk of gated power and throttle design, but when a pilot of the day said he had gone through the 'gate' in combat it was in reference to engaging emergency boost power.

 

"Although the Merlin III engine of Spitfire Is had a power rating of 1,030 hp (768 kW), supplies of 100 octane fuel from the United States started reaching Britain in early 1940.[36] This meant that an "emergency boost" of +12 pounds per square inch was available for five minutes, with pilots able to call on 1,310 hp (977 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 9,000 feet (2,743 m).[37] This boosted the maximum speed by 25 mph (40 km/h) at sea level and 34 mph (55 km/h) at 10,000 ft (3,000 m) and improved the climbing performance between sea level and full throttle height.[30][38] The extra boost wasn't damaging as long as the limitations set forth in the pilot's notes were followed. As a precaution if the pilot had resorted to emergency boost, he had to report this on landing and it had to be noted in the engine log book. There was a wire 'gate' fitted, which the pilot had to break to set the engine to emergency power, this acted as an indicator that emergency power had been used and would be replaced by mechanics on the ground.[39] The extra boost was also available for the Merlin XII fitted to the Spitfire II.[40]"

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Bell_UH-1 side.png

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