Jump to content

Q&A Spitfire Mk XIV


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 341
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126867&page=3

 

How about GGS modeled in Spit XIV?

GGS is something that I have looked into. Ironically one of the problems with including it is its faults. My understanding is that they were very temperamental and often failed.

 

Things like having to hold your head close during turns etc on the early ones, I think the reaction from the general public (WW2 experts aside) would be a little confused if they had to "lean in" with their track ir so the gunsight would work.

 

We haven't made a clear decision about it yet, nor do I have a working sample to look at.

 

I would expect in the first instance that we will do a traditional gunsight however the GGS is used by some other aircraft in our development plan so it may well be something that gets added during beta or post release.

 

I'll keep you guys updated on this one.

 

Pman

Link to comment

Iirc the mk2(i think its the obe used in the later spits) gyro gunsight was pretty much the same thing as the one in the mustang. The mk1 was the one you had to press your eyeball up against and was never put ibto widespread use.

 

Would it be a simple case of slotting in the relevant code from the P51 if ED allowed it? Or us that wishfull thinking?


Edited by Random
Link to comment

As ED announced ww II will no longer be a separate release, but integrated in DCS World, this should be no problem...

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

Link to comment
Iirc the mk2(i think its the obe used in the later spits) gyro gunsight was pretty much the same thing as the one in the mustang. The mk1 was the one you had to press your eyeball up against and was never put ibto widespread use.

 

Would it be a simple case of slotting in the relevant code from the P51 if ED allowed it? Or us that wishfull thinking?

Yeah I've been keeping my eye out for a good example.

 

How far we go with the modelling and coding of it I don't know yet

Can this XIV be used in conjunction with DCS:WWII releases?

 

Hood

As Sith said it will work fine :)

 

Pman

Link to comment

Effect of clipping the wing of Spitfires:

 

pilot_opinions1.jpg

 

appendix-1.jpg

 

rolling.jpg

 

11.jpg

 

Clipping was probably done to reduce wing twisting reducing roll rate...

 

RAEcommentonNACAreport.jpg

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

Link to comment
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126867&page=3

 

How about GGS modeled in Spit XIV?

 

It appears that GGS Gyro gunsight was not regularly fitted to Spitfire XIV aircraft even in March - April 1945:

 

See "Was Gyro gunsight used - No, Not Fitted."

 

130_Walmsley_13march45.jpg

130_Clay_13march45.jpg

130_Ponsford_13march45.jpg

130_Lord_19march45.jpg

130_Hudson_19march45.jpg

130_Walmsley_28march45.jpg

130_Sibeth_28march45.jpg

130_Clay_28march45.jpg

130_Warren_28march45.jpg

130_Ponsford_19april45.jpg

130_Ponsford_20april45.jpg

130_Woodman_24april45.jpg

130_Coverdale_24april45.jpg

130_Stowe_24april45.jpg

130_Edwards_25april45.jpg

130_Ponsford_25april45.jpg

130_Ponsford_Edwards_30april45.jpg

130_Edwards_Ponsford_30april45.jpg

130_Lord_30april45.jpg

 

There are a few examples though of the sight being fitted towards the end of April 1945, a few weeks before the war's end. The majority of the combat reports show that it was not fitted.

 

130_Samouelle_24april45.jpg

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

Link to comment
Effect of clipping the wing of Spitfires:

 

pilot_opinions1.jpg

 

appendix-1.jpg

 

rolling.jpg

 

11.jpg

 

Clipping was probably done to reduce wing twisting reducing roll rate...

 

RAEcommentonNACAreport.jpg

 

A major problem here is that not one of these reports relates to the Mk XIV, nor do any of them relate to the E wing, which dispensed with the outboard .303s and concentrated the armament and weight closer to the wing centre-section.

 

The first two documents are questionnaires indicative of how six pilots on one squadron viewed the clipped wings on Spitfire Vbs in 1942; while most state that the Spitfire couldn't outroll the Fw 190, all comment on improved lateral control; also noting that the opinions from one squadron is too small a sample to be indicative of Fighter Command as a whole.

 

Document 3 from March 1943 showed that the roll rate was improved but is then quoted in another report (document 4) from November 1944 which stated that Spitfires with originally poor ailerons showed greater improvement of the roll rate cf Spitfires with good ailerons and it was inadvisable to use clipped wings. There are other reports and other opinions that say almost the opposite:

 

ClippedSpits1-001_zps4e2271bd.jpg

ClippedSpits2-001_zps8998da61.jpg

 

So far no reports of the effects of clipped wings on the XIV have turned up.

 

Some combat reports in which GGS was used

 

130_Keefer_19march45_zps70b3b40b.jpg

 

130_Woodman_28march45_zps2dda17b1.jpg

 

130_Boulton_28march45_zps74e3beff.jpg

 

130_Keefer_18april45_zpse18933c3.jpg

 

130_Walmsley_20april45_zpsb189be20.jpg

 

130_Samouelle_20april45_zps59d21977.jpg

 

It would be interesting to know why some XIVs of 130 Sqn weren't fitted with GGS while others were.

Link to comment

Generally it was pilot choice and general availability. For the difference between full elliptical tips vs clipped wings it doesn't really matter to us that much

 

We are doing the clipped wing variant so data on the full tips is at the moment at least something for the side lines

 

We have pilots we consult with who have flown both clipped and non clipped spits and their impressions are that the roll rate is higher at low altittude the has more of a detrimental effect higher up. Our spitifre will be subject to testing by them and when we are happy with it then it will go into open beta as with our other products.

 

We also have to bear in mind that with historical data at the time that a lot of is subjective and not 100% scientifically accurate. So we will be placing a good deal of importance of real life experiences with these machines and matching it to the data.

 

As with any aircraft the result is far different to the sum of its parts.

 

Pman

Link to comment

"We also have to bear in mind that with historical data at the time that a lot of is subjective and not 100% scientifically accurate. So we will be placing a good deal of importance of real life experiences with these machines and matching it to the data."

 

Making due allowance I presume for the restricted power settings/G loadings/weight modern restored aircraft operation demands ?

Link to comment
We also have to bear in mind that with historical data at the time that a lot of is subjective and not 100% scientifically accurate. So we will be placing a good deal of importance of real life experiences with these machines and matching it to the data.

 

As with any aircraft the result is far different to the sum of its parts.

 

Pman

 

A very sound approach IMHO, as in my experience it also shows that the historical tests are sometimes sloppy or contradictory. Its always pays to check the results with freshly available data and more modern calculations (compressibility, Mach number and weight corrections for example) and account carefully for the testing conditions - radiators, weather conditions, and the equipment present has a large impact of measured performance. Sometimes the historical documents themselves are not flawless - for example, the conditions are properly stated, sometimes the test was made with a test bed giving poor results or on the contrary, on with experimental setups that did not see into service for one reason or another.

 

That being said, I am curious on how the historical base data can be obtained, as no flight tests of Mk XIV appear to exists, save for the prototype in 1943 (which sadly, had different supercharger gear ratios than production aircraft).

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

Link to comment
A very sound approach IMHO, as in my experience it also shows that the historical tests are sometimes sloppy or contradictory. Its always pays to check the results with freshly available data and more modern calculations (compressibility, Mach number and weight corrections for example) and account carefully for the testing conditions - radiators, weather conditions, and the equipment present has a large impact of measured performance. Sometimes the historical documents themselves are not flawless - for example, the conditions are properly stated, sometimes the test was made with a test bed giving poor results or on the contrary, on with experimental setups that did not see into service for one reason or another.

 

That being said, I am curious on how the historical base data can be obtained, as no flight tests of Mk XIV appear to exists, save for the prototype in 1943 (which sadly, had different supercharger gear ratios than production aircraft).

We have access to a large quantity of historical data that is not available online. Due to a commercial agreement and request from the owner I cant divulge or share this information but suffice to say we have some good historical data on Spitfires and thier performance.

 

You'd be surprised how hard current spitfires and warbirds in general are pushed when they are away from the public eye ;)

 

Pman


Edited by Pman
Link to comment
"We also have to bear in mind that with historical data at the time that a lot of is subjective and not 100% scientifically accurate. So we will be placing a good deal of importance of real life experiences with these machines and matching it to the data."

 

Making due allowance I presume for the restricted power settings/G loadings/weight modern restored aircraft operation demands ?

You'd be surprised what I've seen modern warbirds do, I've seen and heard a Mustang running on full military power at nearly 6g , now that's a sound

 

Pman

Link to comment

That's good to hear - looking very much forward to see your product released! :)

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

Link to comment

Whats interesting to note from these reports where GGS wasn't used are the deflection, the ranges at which fire was opened and the ranges at which strikes on enemy a/c were observed:

 

200-250 yards, 5º destroyed (did not have to "go through gate" [+21 lbs] to keep up"):

 

130_Walmsley_13march45.jpg

 

1st 190D, 400 yards, dead astern no strikes, to 250 yards, 10º , 190 started to smoke then burts into flames: 2nd 190D 80 yds 1 strike out of ammo, damaged:

 

130_Ponsford_13march45.jpg

 

1st 109, 200 yards dead astern, closing to 50 yds; damaged: 2nd 109, 200 yards; destroyed:

 

130_Lord_19march45.jpg

 

1st 109 200 yds dead astern, hit drop tank; destroyed: 2nd 300 yds forced to break off:

 

130_Hudson_19march45.jpg

 

250 yds, dead astern, strikes on wing root, destroyed:

 

130_Sibeth_28march45.jpg

 

1st 190D, 200 feet, destroyed: 2nd 190 300 yards, damaged:

 

130_Clay_28march45.jpg

 

Combat reports using GGS

 

1st 190, 800 yards, strikes on wing: 2nd 190 800 yds @ 30º closing to 400 yds dead astern while climbing, destroyed:

 

130_Woodman_28march45_zps2dda17b1.jpg

 

1st 190, 300 yds @ 30º, destroyed: 2nd 190 (one cannon firing), 250 yds @ 20º strikes on engine:

 

130_Boulton_28march45_zps74e3beff.jpg

 

Ground attack, 1,000 yds, saw strikes on 5 109s:

 

130_Keefer_18april45_zpse18933c3.jpg

 

600 yds line astern, saw strikes, undercarriage came down down; closed to 300 yds, strikes all over cockpit area, destroyed:

 

130_Walmsley_20april45_zpsb189be20.jpg

 

300 yds, astern strikes on cockpit & upper fuselage:

 

130_Samouelle_20april45_zps59d21977.jpg

 

Attached is a 2 TAF report on the combat effectiveness of the GGS Mk IID in Spitfires (Mks IX & XIV) vs the GM II in Spitfires and Tempest Vs. (Courtesy of Neil Stirling: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ )


Edited by Friedrich-4/B
Link to comment
I could sit and read a book of these personal combat reports... is that weird? :)

 

Not at all. Each one of these is a true-life adventure that sparks imagination. Very fun to read... and absolutely horrifying. It's amazing that anyone could survive these scenarios and live to talk about it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Not at all. Each one of these is a true-life adventure that sparks imagination. Very fun to read... and absolutely horrifying. It's amazing that anyone could survive these scenarios and live to talk about it.

 

Ditto: it took guts, whether an RAF pilot, or a Jagdflieger to even climb into one of these engines with fuselage and wings attached and take off, knowing that so many people on the other side were doing their best to ensure that you wouldn't return. Good training and combat experience helped settle the nerves, but it couldn't stop that flak hit, or being shot down by an opposing pilot taking advantage of even the briefest lapse in concentration.

Link to comment

First time I read the after action reports was the ones that came with the big folder you got when you went to see The Battle of Britain film when it was first launched, wish I still had them now as it was a great insight to what the men went through in their Spitfires and Hurricanes.

For a young boy the whole pack was a great source of historical information.

Sons of Dogs, Come Eat Flesh

Clan Cameron

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...

Mk16 Spitfire

 

Interesting thread, probably way to late but in my humble opinion the Mk16 would be the way forward. The last of the Merlin variants and the most beautiful aircraft ever made.

Asus Z87. i7 4770k. 8 GB DDR3 @ 1866 mhz. GTX980ti SC. 120 GB SSD. 1TB Evo SSD. 750W PSU. W7/64. BenQ W1070 Projector. Yamaha RXV 673 AVR, Energy Take 7.1 S.S. 100" screen, serving wench & lap dancing facilities.

Link to comment
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...