ED please make option to block this Cheat??

everybody has this thing. how can it be cheat?

Because it makes obsolete to know how to do the correct navigation in emergency situations when all your navigation instruments are inoperable/untrusted, or if your aircraft has those in such case.

There is a reason why even today laws requires sailors to have a paper map, compass and sextant in case their GPS navigation systems breaks down.

Same thing is with pilots, you need to know how to perform navigation, as you do that anyways in the mission planning phase and that is your base operation. It is easy to look your kneeboard your heading, speed and time and you know where you are going, but that is time consuming and difficult when you are in combat and you need to get your bearings and communicate with others to get your situation awareness updated where they are.

That is reason why a simple navigation without interruptions is easy as you fly just from point to point at given speed and check your clock and compensate for that.

And that is as well why combat pilots value very much the moving map as they get a lot of information through that where they are, where others are, what they can do etc.

That moving map is one of the major advantages that is separating various aircrafts from different era. And it is the thing that makes you to be able complete your mission or you get lost. Example flying in a F-5 is totally different experience than flying in a AV-8B Harrier when it comes to close air support and you are operating at night or in bad weather.

And when other can check their digital moving map to get their situational awareness updated quickly, change their plans and tactics, the other is required to pull out a paper map and start to crunch some numbers.

Sorry this is one of that really stupid ideas. I don't wanna wait 20-30 minutes to get my bird refueled and rearmed when i have just 2-3 hours to fly on an evening.

There is a fix for that. The limitation amount of the aircrafts on the airfield, there should be two kinds in the field, condition - reserve. And condition - in service.

If you manage to land a aircraft on airfield, it goes to service roster, where it gets repaired in X amount of time and once done it goes to reserve. You as an pilot, can anytime then jump to another aircraft that is in the reserve.

A good ground crew can rearm and refuel a fighter in 5-10 minutes.

If you fail to bring the aircraft back to base, it is out of the counter. And as the airbases already allow the distribution of the fuel, ammunition and aircrafts, it makes challenge for every virtual pilot because they are responsible fully how the server war situation is changing.

Then you get your bird damaged make it back to the base and wait the next couple of days till your bird is repaired without flying it?

Sure, lets go for hyperbolics totally.

And what's the problem with an autostart button? As far as i know you are much faster if you know the procedure and skip all the (virtual) unnecessary test buttons.

You should perform the test buttons, as it can be that there are random malfunctions. Of course that is the HC pilot.

And i don't see the kneeboard markings as a cheat because its only an advantage in the early jets and warbirds. Everything else has a navigation system where your predefined flightplan is already programmed.

No need to learn anything, no need to know how to navigate, how to retreat, when to attack, how to start and stop the aircraft, no need to know many many things...

Just hit quickly "respawn", autostart and go shoot all the missiles, don't care about consequences etc.

You should perform the test buttons, as it can be that there are random malfunctions. Of course that is the HC pilot.

Since you get a new a new airplane on every mission start it's completely obsolete for me to perform virtual tests. I know its new and it will function properly. I am old enough to know that i will never be able to fly one of those aircraft. No need to learn and perform obsolete tests for me in my spare time which is not quite much.

No need to learn anything, no need to know how to navigate, how to retreat, when to attack, how to start and stop the aircraft, no need to know many many things...

 

Just hit quickly "respawn", autostart and go shoot all the missiles, don't care about consequences etc.

Yes there is no real need for it, but if you wanna progress in some way you will learn whats important for you in different situations. The start up procedure is something i learn at the end of my modules, at the time when i think i am ready to fly on a server. And in singleplayer there are no consequences so far, you die, fly again, you didn't manage to complete the given task, fly again, you killed a friendly, fly again. When you limit the lives of your virtual pilot like some servers do, then you have to face some consequences if you do stupid things. And people not knowing anything are hardly a threat to pilots who know their business even a little bit.

lmao why bother shooting other planes when you can defeat them on the forums first

anyways, patching out this functionality, while fine, doesn't take care of the real problem. if someone is too lazy to learn vfr, they're not going to learn vfr, and when you get rid of it, they'll sooner find some other loophole to exploit than sit down and do what they already made up their mind not to do.

dcs's architecture will always leave it vulnerable to exploits. if you want to pursue the chimerical "level playing field" you will have to eliminate one by one features like mfd export, all the way until you realize you need to issue and somehow force everyone to use standardized simpit hardware.

you simply cannot stop someone who chooses to be unsporting. the only solution here is to just encourage people to care about aviation.

Did people that flew on Cessna at 1945- 1980 had an Ipad or gps on board ?

Do your markers on the dcs map the same way as in your cessna, not by pressing left ctrl+k then it will be realistic.

They were introduced with the Huey, which has someone acting as 'Navigator' to assist the pilot. Same for Mi-8.

The feeling was that it's less realistic for the pilot to be trying to both fly and navigate in those aircraft than it is to have the markers for a single player.

I think this still stands for MP servers now.

It would make sense to have the ability to limit its use for single seat aircraft....

If something can be used as a cheat it will be used. Period. No point in arguing on the word. Cheats, aids, whatever. It's rather about stopping the trend for simplifying things and easing up, which has no place in study sim, where realism should be priority. Let's leave it to MAC, which is about to release soon.

If we have the options for MP the server owners, mission makers and players will decide what is used in the end.

How else can we encourage people, probad?

lmao why bother shooting other planes when you can defeat them on the forums first

:thumbup:

Some of you folks need to go outside more ;) This isn't a trend, btw, it's always been there. Y'all just now noticing?

Some of you folks need to go outside more ;) This isn't a trend, btw, it's always been there. Y'all just now noticing?

Look at the Tomcat corner. They already want quick INS allign, pilot operated RIO buttons and whatnot...

They were introduced with the Huey, which has someone acting as 'Navigator' to assist the pilot. Same for Mi-8.

 

The feeling was that it's less realistic for the pilot to be trying to both fly and navigate in those aircraft than it is to have the markers for a single player.

That would then require be so that AI automatically add waypoints that you can't control. As it is the navigator job to know where they are.

How else can we encourage people, probad?

what you suggest isn't convincing, it's forcing. there are some people who simply cannot be convinced, and that's something we have to be at peace with, so long as they form part of the community. you can't save everyone.

don't take it to mean that we should resign ourselves to perpetually appeasing the pressure to slide downhill into the lowest denominator, more just that there is no real "end" that can be achieved, and sometimes you have to give in a little to avoid nastier repercussions.

i always was against the whole jester rio ai thing, especially in mp, but looking at it now, i'd say it was prudent. solo f-14s are still the unfortunate majority online, the causes running the gamut from "my buddy is offline", to "i have no friends", "i don't want to be judged", "im too good for everyone else", and "solo operation is faster and more reliable than what my communication skills allow for in a 2man crew", leading to the practice of binding rearseat controls to the frontseat slot for, practically, full solo functionality. if jester did not exist, i imagine the practice would only proliferate and be regarded as mandatory for everyone who ever entertained the possibility of not having a backseater. that would be an even more tragic result.

so the path of least resistance must be respected even if the goal is warding it off.

It is a navigation aid and is supposed to simulate a manual map with a pen so you can mark out where you are. Perfectly accurate as any sensible pilot would have in his flight bag.

If something can be used as a cheat it will be used. Period. No point in arguing on the word. Cheats, aids, whatever. It's rather about stopping the trend for simplifying things and easing up, which has no place in study sim, where realism should be priority. Let's leave it to MAC, which is about to release soon.

 

If we have the options for MP the server owners, mission makers and players will decide what is used in the end.

 

How else can we encourage people, probad?

Yes this is the other thing, that's the treatement of tack-ons, they shouldn't be given special promotion/recommendation by developer as the de-facto way to play, should be neutral on this, not saying that ED has done anything but just saying in general.

Because the proper realistic way to play the aircraft is exactly how the aircraft/heli was meant to be flown when it was released in real life. If they had kneeboard with pen back in 1977 then so be it, if they could use a pen and put markers on a piece of paper back then, we should be too in the simulator today.

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But initially the OP was not clear, for some reason I thought that everyone else in the MP server could see the kneeboard and the markers the player put down, if that's not the case and if everyone has the ability to place markers on their own kneeboard then there should be no cheat problem, then there's only a level of simulation, or depth of simulation issue, or an aid(sim vs realism cheat) option issue, which means there is no need for any additional simulator support exctept an option, and that should be a trivial, and I support such an option ofcourse.

EDIT: Omg my whole post with 10 quote replies got cut due to bad copy paste.

TLDR: There's two kinds of cheats, one is simulator vs reality, the term aid is just a more polite one for the smaller ones.

The other kind is inside DCS player vs player. What the OP was talking about is the sim vs reality cheating, so it's not what we would call a cheat in DCS MP context.

There's two kinds of cheats, one is simulator vs reality...

the term aid is just a more polite one for the smaller ones.

You’re taking it too seriously and fooling yourself into thinking you’re doing something more serious than you’re really doing, when you tell yourself that an aid to assist single players fly an aircraft designed to be flown by a crew of 2 or 3 is a ‘cheat’.

Edit: I do agree though, that if some folk want to disable this option in MP for single seat aircraft, or go hardcore “ ‘leet “ and ban it for choppers and multi-seat aircraft too, that should be an option...

There's two kinds of cheats, one is simulator vs reality

You’re taking it too seriously and fooling yourself into thinking you’re doing something more serious than you’re really doing, when you tell yourself that an aid to assist single players fly an aircraft designed to be flown by a crew of 2 or 3 is a ‘cheat’.

Options are always good.

To each their own. If a full-real server with 30 minute rearms, no auto start-up/shutdown procedures, 1 life a week, no kneeboard marks, no-solo-flying-multicrew-planes server becomes popular, good on ya. Sorta kinda doubt it though.

In the Gazelle for one, I'm gonna go with a kneeboard substitute for a co-pilot.

But the whole term "aid" comes from singleplayer doesn't it, where it was used, buy whom originally I don't know, for the purpose of replacing time consuming and tedious tasks with shortcuts, if the AI has the same "aid" available to him then you're not cheating him allright, but you are both cheating reality.

No, the aim was never to "replac(e) time consuming and tedious tasks with shortcuts".

The aim was simulating the presence of a crewmember who's responsibility it is to know where the aircraft is - a navigator.

In the Huey, and in the Mi-8 (the aircraft they were introduced for), the pilot shouldn't be burying their head in a map trying to dead reckon their position, and nor should it be them setting the course and distance into the Mi-8 nav system.

If you were flying 2 up in the Mi-8 or Huey and using the kneeboard marker - yes, maybe you'd be using a cheat.

If you're flying solo in MP and trying to both navigate and fly - you're placing an unrealistic workload on the pilot of the aircraft, and are further from simulating the actual experience of a multi-crew aircraft than if you just used the kneeboard as a proxy for asking the co-pilot or navigator to tell you where you are, and where you're supposed to be going...

No, the aim was never to "replac(e) time consuming and tedious tasks with shortcuts".

 

The aim was simulating the presence of a crewmember who's responsibility it is to know where the aircraft is - a navigator.

 

In the Huey, and in the Mi-8 (the aircraft they were introduced for), the pilot shouldn't be burying their head in a map trying to dead reckon their position, and nor should it be them setting the course and distance into the Mi-8 nav system.

 

If you were flying 2 up in the Mi-8 or Huey and using the kneeboard marker - yes, maybe you'd be using a cheat.

 

If you're flying solo in MP and trying to both navigate and fly - you're placing an unrealistic workload on the pilot of the aircraft, and are further from simulating the actual experience of a multi-crew aircraft than if you just used the kneeboard as a proxy for asking the co-pilot or navigator to tell you where you are, and where you're supposed to be going...

Sure, I deleted the post, I didn't mean to post that at all, it's a lot more complicated and I don't want to spend time doing a research paper on it, the stuff that isn't simulated would then be regarded as a cheat if I followed my own rule of reality only looking at it objectively, leading to everything being regarded as a cheat even the parts that aren't simulated as much so I guess I'll drop this for now, but it's not case closed.

Fast reload/refuel/repair ... you may call it "i don't have time" so ... but it's not a cheat as long as everyone else has the same thing available, AI's should be able to be a lot more closer to player's capabilites and behavior and the things that can affect it's options, hopefully an update to that happens before or at the time when dynamic campaigns show up as it that makes sense.

The only way to make these things less fake would be to simulate it but speed it up, so you'd wait nothing, but the game would have been running at fastest gamepseed during the skip so you'd have some activity going on. But that's impossible to do in multiplayer.

I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of the whole battle with and without fast RRR, and see how the whole thing differs, there could be some surprising results, or maybe I'm wrong maybe the whole thing would just be the same but squeezed tighter/shorter.

Hint: I think it completely changes the flow and style of the gameplay, chain of events, forks, would differ greately.

It makes it impossible to get lost, how is that a cheat?

Because IRL you don't have such an option (especially in older aircraft like WW2 and Cold War era aircraft without INS/GPS equipment) and it is very much possible to get lost there. Should be the same ingame!

+1

Bump in order to request that the Kneeboard Mark Current Position feature be selectable in the mission editor as on or off.

Thanks in advance.

Why is that kneeboard option such a problem for you guys?

Frankly I didn't even know it is there, till I found out about it in this post ;D well basically you spread the word with this bump, now even more people will know about it;D

The upcoming Mi-24P has nice map box in pilot cockpit. Pilot can use a pen to draw on map board where are enemy units, friendly units or routes etc. Pilot has multiple board with them for different areas and scale. 

Great thing is that pilot could land next to friendlies and ask them to mark on map where enemies are. Then insert map to box, move the position strips symbolizing helicopter on proper place and good to go.

Pilot doesn't even need to mark position on map as it is shown there. Pilot only needs to look outside and compare visually terrain and does the symbol match with it, and make correction if necessary.

So even for Mi-24P player it is a cheat.

I have used it lately as such when training MiG-21Bis navigation system.... I know instantly where I am and how I have misinterpreted the HSI.

But for actual navigation I don't need it, I wouldn't have it. If I am lost, then I am lost.

If I can't utilize aircraft navigation system to find out where I am, I shouldn't have a magical tick on map at will either.

For training purpose it is great as it is 100% accurate. You can confirm your skills with it.

But I want it as well be opt-in feature (not opt-out) next to infinite fuel and weapons....

2 hours ago, Furiz said:

Why is that kneeboard option such a problem for you guys?

Frankly I didn't even know it is there, till I found out about it in this post ;D well basically you spread the word with this bump, now even more people will know about it;D

It's only a problem for multiplayer where the server operator wants players to use skill and airmanship, navigation being one of the fundamental skills.
That's it. A narrow application.
Making it a server option for those who want it so harms no other players.
Just in the same way that restricting air frames, or maps, or weapons or external views on a server harms nobody else.

Some people want the OPTION to force it off for their server, just like all the other options that are available. Why not let them have it?

8 hours ago, philstyle said:

It's only a problem for multiplayer where the server operator wants players to use skill and airmanship, navigation being one of the fundamental skills.
That's it. A narrow application.
Making it a server option for those who want it so harms no other players.
Just in the same way that restricting air frames, or maps, or weapons or external views on a server harms nobody else.

Some people want the OPTION to force it off for their server, just like all the other options that are available. Why not let them have it?

 

Thank you for typing that. 
 

The beautiful thing about DCS is that it is a true sand box that allows an extremely wide range of options.

This is simply a request to include another plastic shovel. 

11 hours ago, philstyle said:

It's only a problem for multiplayer where the server operator wants players to use skill and airmanship, navigation being one of the fundamental skills.
That's it. A narrow application.
Making it a server option for those who want it so harms no other players.
Just in the same way that restricting air frames, or maps, or weapons or external views on a server harms nobody else.

Some people want the OPTION to force it off for their server, just like all the other options that are available. Why not let them have it?

This!