New effects

Hey y'all!

I just watched Wags' most recent video (this one )

and he was talking about some new stuff, one of those was new explosion effects.

I want to take that as an opportunity to talk about new effects a bit and ask a few questions, hoping that there will be answers and/or opinions.

@Wags, it would be great if you could answer a few of them in a livestream :)

So let's see, planned visual effects improvements mentioned in the last few months were

- rain, including rain effect on canopies IIRC (perhaps also snow, don't remember)

- new clouds

- new explosions

- new grass

If I forgot some just post them please.

I'll start with the most important question for me:

1. Will those just be graphical effects or do they affect gameplay? Examples:

a. heavy rain greatly reduces visibility, both for players (obviously) and for the AI. It even affects some weapon systems, like lasers of TGPs for example. Snow is even worse, even radar-based systems can suffer greatly in such conditions.

b. Some explosions create smoke. Since you already talked about new smoke effects at some point I'd like to ask: Will smoke block AI line of sight or at least have an impact on the AI's accuracy, both that of attacking planes and that of the ground units near the smoke?

c. Will the new smoke effects last longer than the old ones? Anyone who has seen a burning car or a burning house knows that those create huge black columns of smoke that can be seen over big distances and last quite a while. I'd like to have that in DCSW, if it is possible.

d. I know I already asked about the clouds in some other thread, and there wasn't any info about it yet, but I'll include it here for the sake of completeness: Will the new clouds block AI line of sight, will they create thermic effects below and in them, and will they be synchronized between clients?

2. Will there be a possibility to get simpler effects (all kinds of them) if they affect performance too much? I imagine that could be a tough question, especially if the answer to my first question is "yes they affect gameplay". If the answer to my first question is "no, they don't affect gameplay" this is an important one. I'd rather have ugly smoke and ugly clouds than a much lower performance, especially when those efffects don't affect gameplay.

3. My next question is one concerning style. We have a lot of games out there who have beautiful effects, like huge fiery Hollywood-like explosions which look awesome. Unfortunately they are in many cases quite unrealistic, which (in my opinion at least) doesn't fit into a simulation environment like DCSW. I understand people kinda expect those though, so it might be a tough decision for developers.

So ED, what's your approach to that? Rather cool looking or rather realistic?

4. Almost as important and related: Do you distinguish between stuff that is exploding? An oil tank exploding/burning looks very different than a Mk-82 bomb hitting a revetment, for example. I think it should be a configuration parameter for an object, determining the type and size of the explosion and the time the object burns and smokes. (I am not sure, but isn't that how it is handled now?)

4a: Related question:

With the new explosion effects, will new kinds of weapons also be included in the possibilities? Like fiery Napalm-type stuff or Willie-Pete bombs or Mushroom clouds caused by certain kinds of weapons? (see post #8 of this thread)

5. what kinds of effects can we expect from grass? Examples:

- grass moving in wind

- grass pressed down by helicopters

- blades of grass flying around like the dust clouds caused by helis

- vehicles such as tanks leaving tracks in the grass

- grass blowing in the wind

- grass burnt when weapons are used near it

- shock waves of explosions moving grass

6. About the rain: How will rain effects be handled by ED and third parties? Will older modules be upgraded with working rain removal mechanisms, such as wipers on helis or those air-blowing rain removal things on some jets?

(NEW) 7. I just noticed I forgot about contrails. Does the DCSW AI react to contrails? Do they spot contrailing planes earlier? They should! At least if there aren't clouds in the way.

(NEW) 7a. Contrails should depend on a few more factors, IIRC now they are purely altitude, based, aren't they?

(NEW) 8. Add "attacking from the direction of the Sun" to the list. It was an important tactic in WW1 and WW2. DCSW doesn't care about WW1, that's ok, but since DCSW is going to have a WW2 environment that one is also kinda important.

(NEW) 9. over wing vapor and similar condensation effects (vapor cone for supersonic jets or blade tip vapor for props at high humidity). Purely cosmetic effects, but they should depend on humidity. I don't know if humidity is a value in the engine, if it isn't you could probably guess a value based on the weather settings.

9a: Missile contrails perhaps? See http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2833791&postcount=124

(NEW) 10. Icing conditions. Many planes have-de-icing systems, and AFAIK different planes do or do not simulate them (and the icing that happens if you don't use the de-icing) for some systems.

The question is similar to question #6:

Will the DCSW engine provide functions for icing conditions, will new new modules (or even old ones!) feature visible icing effects, and if yes, how will third party modules be handled? (for example will the modelling of such effects and the de-icing mechanisms up to a certain degree be mandatory for a DCS module?)

(NEW) 11. More about smoke and spotting, see this post: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2917573&postcount=146

That's it for now. Looking forward to all the new effects. :)

I'm not sure how will effects and exactly environment looks like in "2.5" but THERE is some sneak peek from that TBS ("Professional DCS"). You can notice that "new" grass and colidable trees on the Black sea map... However the Wags signature should be taken in mind on that. :music_whistling:

Take this as note to that topic...

Yeah, but those pictures only show the visual effects. My questions were mainly about gameplay aspects.

Collideable trees are a step into the right direction though! :)

...now if they only blocked weapons and AI line of sight... but that's another topic.

btw, why was this thread moved?

It is a thread with questions for Wags and to discuss about the new features. Not some new features that I imagine for some distant future but those particular ones that were mentioned by Wags.

What excites me the most is the rain over the canopy, oh boy..

EDIT: (referring to a deleted post: )Please stop with the comparisons to other sims. You are right in some cases, but DCSW is so much better than all other sims concerning much of the important stuff.

It isn't that important how it looks IMO, good graphics are nice but not the most important aspect. It is the gameplay that makes the sim immersive and realistic.

That's why we have to look at it, and that's also why this thread exists. All those nice improved visual effects are worth almost nothing if they are not compatible with how things are supposed to work.

Example: imagine you can create beautiful clouds or smoke columns, but their shape and position is determined by some client-side algorithm so everyone in multiplayer sees them in different spots. Also they are just graphics shader stuff so the simulation environment doesn't know about them. That means the AI can see through them. That's a bad implementation.

Same goes for rain. Even if it looks nice it can still be a bad implementation. Does it affect the missile seekers? The AI spotting performance? If no it is bad.

EDIT: and please mods, move the thread back. This is not a wish list, it is a list of questions to Wags.

Ok, so I'll go ahead and ask Wags those questions during the upcoming live stream with live chat (if I can join, I have internet problems where I am right now).

So if y'all have more questions for Wags about those effects this is a good time to post them. It makes it easier for Wags to answer them. :)

(and please @mods, move this thread back to the general category. It is not a wish list so it does not belong into this section).

The last few live streams have had chat disabled..

The last few live streams have had chat disabled..

Hi all,

 

I plan to do a little live stream this weekend, 12 June, at around 1200 PST. This will be live chat stream.

 

For this weekend's stream, I'm going to jump back to the F-5E and talk a little about navigation, landing, and whatever else jumps into my head.

 

See you there!

 

https://gaming.youtube.com/channel/UCHa9LMylydkT0T3qSzAVrlw#tab=1

 

Thanks

:music_whistling:

:music_whistling:

:music_whistling:

I want to ask him a few questions about the new effects coming to DCS.. believe or not, the new explosion effect isn't what I am waiting for...

I don't care too much about the explosions either, IMO those are fine right now (except that their smoke isn't realistic).

The clouds and weather effects are much worse right now. But since he talked about the explosions I included them of course. :)

EDIT: and btw: please move the thread somewhere else.

So during the stream Wags said he doesn't want to answer those questions just jet, but wait until 2.5 is further along.

Thanks for reading and answering, Wags (even though I would have loved to hear more)! :)

He got my attention when he was saying that.

Yeah, I really hope ED surprises us with some really cool effects that also have an impact on gameplay, at least some of them.

It is very important for DCSW as a simulation environment. In a sim it just isn't enough that it looks cool, that is a big difference to a normal game.

At the moment DCSW fails (ok, fails is too much, let's say it lacks a bit) in some simulation aspects, sometimes in things that were already covered in older simulations and games. But I am sure DCSW will improve greatly. It is the future, I am sure about that and I tell everyone who wants to hear about it (and some who don't want). :D

Are those games as big and complicated as DCS World?

Some were at least in the right order of magnitude, yes.

But that's not the point. The point is to improve DCSW, regardless of what was done before. Stating that other games have done something before merely should point developers into a direction, to show it isn't impossible. As an engineer examples are important for me, that's all.

Simple example: Clouds should block AI line of sight, and they should be synched in multiplayer. That has nothing to do with the size or complexity of the rest of the game.

EDIT: One of the cool things about DCSW is that it aims for high realism standards. That's true for many aspects of the game, just look at all the planes! DCSW does planes much better than any other sim. Graphics are also good, that's all fine.

But that's the point of the thread: What are nice effects worth if they don't contribute to the simulation environment? If enemy gunners can aim and shoot their guns (those without radar) accurately through thick black smoke of a burning fuel truck that's a bad implementation of smoke, regardless of how cool it looks.

EDIT2:

I just noticed I forgot about contrails. Does the DCSW AI react to contrails? Do they spot contrailing planes earlier? They should!

EDIT3:

Add "attacking from the direction of the Sun" to the list. It was an important tactic in WW1 and WW2. DCSW doesn't care about WW1, that's ok, but since DCSW is going to have a WW2 environment that one is also kinda important. And much easier to do than complex radar math. It is just a matter of heading and time.

EDIT: I forgot adding those to the first post. Doing that now.

Great video.

By the way, I was pleased to see the F/A-18C logo in the menu screen. (7th from the right).

An additional question:

With the new explosion effects, will new kinds of weapons also be included in the possibilities? Like fiery Napalm-type stuff or Willie-Pete bombs or Mushroom clouds caused by certain kinds of weapons?

Example video:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER5rztRzOaM[/ame]

Note: Please guys if you read my posts, keep in mind this is about effects in a computer simulation. I do not endorse the use of WP bombs, Napalm, aerosol bombs or nuclear weapons in real life and that should not be the topic here.

I really want the over wing vapor.. I'm not sure if humidity is simulated in DCS, but a visual effect would be so cool, condensation is one of my favorite effects..

Oohhh, good point! I actually forgot about it. There once was a cool mod attempting to add them but it was never released, dunno why.

So while it would be a purely cosmetic mod with no gameplay impact I think it would be a great addition.

Not sure how I would think about it happening all the time though, so I guess they would have to at least guess a humidity based on the weather or something. Vapor over the wing when flying over Nevada at noon in summer would look weird.

I'll add it to the first post, thanks!

And come to think about effects I think I'll also add icing, since I am not sure how it is implemented. Most modules have at least Pitot and/or engine icing, and none of them has a visual effect to it (IIRC Leatherneck had something planned for the MiG-21 canopy icing, but I am not sure where that went).

But icing is a lot more than just pitot tubes and engines. Iced slats are not funny I guess. I would love to have all that icing stuff, including visual effects. I wonder if something like that is planned so I'll include that as a question.

EDIT: Ok, added #9 and #10

Over wing vapor/condensation is "based" on the humidity also it depends on load factor and how much lift a wing produces.. poor explanation but that's it, the over wing vapor isn't so easy to develop I guess, because every single wing has a different effect, so it would need to be modeled for each plane (I guess they would start first with the playable planes.. of course!) For example rainy days, it would be very easy to see the condensantion, especially the big planes.

Anyways, the effect is JUST BEAUTIFUL! here is a video:

EDIT: Watching the video it seems to be very complex to make..

So while it would be a purely cosmetic mod with no gameplay impact I think it would be a great addition.

Humidity is already modelled, the flight model does tap into it if i'm not mistaken.

Also this is more than just cosmetic. In WVR dogfights, knowing whether your opponent is pulling gs or not is important.

Yeah, considering that even contrails in real life are a lot more complex than what we have in the sim now it would of course be an approximation.

Perhaps a rough idea of humidity, and a certain G-load could be sufficient to create something that is believable (although of course not completely realistic.

EDIT @Sobek: right!

EDIT2: Added #7a (contrail altitude). Would make altitude decisions more important.

I don't think we can't justify lack of something just because it is just a visual effect and no gameplay impact. With gameplay impact or not, must be in game for me. Anyways, visual is important.. :)

Pretty Sure Overwing vapor is planned to be High G... ie: