Fighting the dreaded... MiG-15bis?

First, many thanks to the Belsimtek team for a terrific module. I've spent dozens of hours learning the F-5E-3, enjoying every step of the process.

Now that I've "mastered" all the systems and completed all the training missions, I'm starting to practice dogfighting in the Tiger II. Having previously flown the F-86F-35, I've been looking forward to experiencing the "great leap" of a supersonic 3rd generation fighter. With many combats against the MiG-15bis in the Sabre, I figured I'd start there to see how big a leap the Tiger II represented.

So I began to develop a gameplan to fight a MiG-15. Hmm... don't want to turn with the MiG (wing-loading ~45 lb/ft2 vs Tiger IIs 84 lb/ft2). Got it. I'll use my power against him. But then I checked T:W ratios and see that the MiG-15 is equal to the Tiger II, both around 0.60 (with F-5E in afterburner). Thus, in any sustained climb, the MiG-15 will likely outclimb me (similar T:W + lighter wing-loading). Ceiling? Both are about the same at ~51,000 ft, and the F-5s heavier wing-loading really hurts at that height. What about zoom climbs? Well, the Tiger II IS slightly heavier, so I should get a very small advantage, but it'll disappear quickly as the MiG-15 does a sustained climb. To my surprise, I seem to be left with supersonic speed and roll rate as my only maneuvering advantages over a much older fighter.

Sure enough, when I take on an Excellent MiG-15bis over Nevada, I'm completely stymied at the merge. He easily outturns me. When I plug in the afterburner and climb, he stays with me. I can stay out of reach by accelerating supersonic, and I can shoot him in the face with AIM-9P5s, but that feels like cheating. I can escape nearly at will, but I'm surprised at how well a fighter from 1950 is able to neutralize a 3rd generation fighter - neither turn fighting or energy fighting seems to work once merged.

I'm still new to dogfighting in the F-5E, and I'm sure there are many things I'm missing here. Any advice on how to beat a MiG-15 once merged? Is the only game to separate and try head-on passes?

Threads with this general topic - how to fight various AI aircraft in the F5 and frustration trying to do so - keep coming up. There are numerous threads across all the modules addressing the advantages the AI seem to have (always flying their aircraft at maximum efficiency, lack of PFM for AI, perfect vision, simplified damage model and so on) so I won’t go there here.

I would advise anyone lamenting the F5s deficiencies to take it online. The ACG Cold War server is generally excellent and human players are much more enjoyable opponents (not to mention human pilots are much better wingmen....sometimes haha). And on that note, I would be lying if I said I haven’t fallen victim to a MiG 15 on that server a time or two. For all the reasons you explained, a MiG 15 and a competent pilot are a serious issue for the F5 if the mig is allowed into guns range.

I realize that probably isn’t the answer you are looking for. I love flying the F5 in weather and in a CAS role single player or in coop, but frankly I would probably have retired it a long time ago if I was trying to fight AI aircraft with it on a regular basis.

your obsession with honorable maneuver trading is whats killing you

everything is fair, abuse the tools you have and dont look back.

Thanks both for the replies. I've read some of those threads and I was fine with the AI having perfect vision, simplified damage model, etc. Figured he'd know I'm there and I'd have to really maul him to bring him down. I know the AI also flies to the razor edge of the available envelope, but I guess I was surprised at how it all combined to make the MiG-15 a match for the F-5. I'm convincing myself it's also the simplified flight model which is giving an extra advantage even the best human pilot couldn't wring out of the old MiG :).

As you say, sounds like I'll need to focus on leveraging the few advantages of the F-5 and just keep opening distance.

I will say that I accidentally found a way that is killing the Excellent AI regularly. Zoom climb up to 30,000+, bring the MiG-15 up with me, then dive down supersonic. The MiG tries to follow and as I pull away and look back, there's consistently a black smoking hole in the ground. Guess the AI isn't anticipating the MiG's tendency to depart controlled flight on pullup above M0.92.

Ha LOL! Sounds like a real “road runner vs coyote” finale!

Now you know how Thud pilots felt against the MiG-17s over Vietnam :D.

As you say, sounds like I'll need to focus on leveraging the few advantages of the F-5 and just keep opening distance.

just as an addendum on the mental approach thing, one shouldnt ever feel "bad" about having "only a few" options, because some options are more powerful than others.

in any case, so long as you have even one move that the other guy can't match, you can win.

Can I ask? -

If you don't want to turn with him and don't want to put a missile in his face, then how exactly do you expect to win?

You have rollrate, speed and missiles in your favor. Use them and don't fight on his terms.

Probad - good point. I like that phrasing "some options are more powerful than others" :). If I was a real pilot, flying the F-5E would still be preferable because I always have the option to engage or disengage at will. The MiG-15 is trapped until the F-5E runs out of gas.

Svend_D - what had me surprised was that it seemed the only reliable way the knock down a 1950 vintage fighter was dependence on a mid-late-1980s weapon (the AIM-9P5). I was curious how a 3rd generation fighter would do against a "1st generation" fighter (yes, I know Me-262 and Meteor were technically 1st gen and F-86/MiG-15 were later). Without the AIM-9P5, I'm not sure how to use speed and roll rate alone to win consistently. With roll rate, I can certainly get a scissors going, but my advantage in roll rate gets neutralized by his much better turn rate, right?

It’s the same if you take a Sabre up against a bf-109. You have speed on your side but there’s no way you can turn with a ww2 fighter. As fighters got bigger and faster they also got less maneuverable (until thrust vectoring) at low speeds. So if you don’t use your speed or missiles then you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage for turning style dogfights.

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Boom and zoom is what you've got. If you are initiating a head on pass, real world you screwed up in letting the the bandit get co-altitude and his nose around to face you. For DACM it's good to do this occasionally to see how to get out of it.

I'd start out practicing from a classic 6 o'clock ambush. Either high or low. Come screaming it at the speed of heat, one pass, and hopefully their smoking wreckage is the end result. Once you get that down (which due to a lower closure rate isn't as tricky as other options), switch to 3/4 attack (7-8 o'clock and 4-5 o'clock) then directly abeam, moving to quartering from the front and finally, head on. Practice high and low, co-altitude teaches you nothing but bad habits and is exceedingly rare in practice. Head on is the hardest due to the massive closure rate, you have little time to setup, stabilize, and engage.

If your initial engagement didn't work, extend, extend, and extend some more. You want to create enough space via your speed to be able to setup in you preferred engagement geometry again. You'll probably end up with a head on pass (particularly with the AI), but you should be able to dictate an altitude advantage at the least. In furball, pick a fresh victim, and go for it.

-Jenrick

Ricktoberfest - Yes, I was wondering why a much more "advanced" fighter would be so impotent against an older airframe (see your F-86 vs Bf 109 example). Then it occurred to me that fighter-v-fighter combat isn't actually the most critical factor in the direction of these airframes (2nd gen -> 3rd gen). t's about knocking down all the rest of the enemy's flying machines. Their bombers, CAS, transports, helicopters, etc. As I thought about what an F-5 could do to a fleet of Tu-16s or Tu-95s protected by MiG-15s, I realized that the F-5 is still a major leap forwards :).

Jenrick - good training tips on the different approaches. As for boom-and-zoom, I was trying that as my starting strategy against the MiG-15bis, but that's where I was surprised at the MiGs ability to stay with me in vertical maneuvers. So no ability to outturn, and little or no ability to "zoom" means I'm largely neutralized in a 1-v-1 fight. As you say, if the MiG-15bis is already starting coaltitude, cospeed and head-on, then perhaps the F-5 has already lost the advantage and needs to disengage until it can come in supersonic.

I was wondering why a much more "advanced" fighter would be so impotent against an older airframe

it's like getting your friend to hold your drink for you. yeah sure now you don't have the drink in your hand (the drink in this case is a capability like turning), but in exchange you can go run around and do things that other guy holding his drink can't. and this "friend" that allows you to not have to hold your drink anymore are inventions like missiles or tactics like multielement attacks.

advancements never come free of charge. you just shift responsibilities off onto other stuff to free yourself to achieve once-unattainable goals. get used to the idea that there are critical elements to your airplane that aren't bolted onto the airframe.

As you say, if the MiG-15bis is already starting coaltitude, cospeed and head-on, then perhaps the F-5 has already lost the advantage and needs to disengage until it can come in supersonic.

sure, disengage as much as you need to because the disengage is just another maneuver in the long fight.

Yes, I was wondering why a much more "advanced" fighter would be so impotent against an older airframe (see your F-86 vs Bf 109 example).

 

Jenrick - good training tips on the different approaches. As for boom-and-zoom, I was trying that as my starting strategy against the MiG-15bis, but that's where I was surprised at the MiGs ability to stay with me in vertical maneuvers. So no ability to outturn, and little or no ability to "zoom" means I'm largely neutralized in a 1-v-1 fight. As you say, if the MiG-15bis is already starting coaltitude, cospeed and head-on, then perhaps the F-5 has already lost the advantage and needs to disengage until it can come in supersonic.

It's not impotent, not anymore so then an F-86 vs a Bf 109, or say a F-14 vs an A6M2. Yes both of the prop jobs turn better, but I still know which jet I'd prefer to be in. If you play to the other guys strength you are doing it wrong. You don't turn against a fighter that can out turn you, and you try to avoid it with a fighter that has parity with you. The opponent can climb better then you can, then don't get in that match up. The F-5's advantage is the big E, energy. It has an almost 400 knot top speed advantage, so you use that. Have a higher energy state at all times. They can't climb with you, or dive with you at that point, meaning you can extend at your leisure dictating the fight completely. The Mig is 100% defensive, all it takes is one mistake and they are yours. All you have to do is not make a huge glaring mistake (like getting slow or being pulled into a turning fight) and you can do it as long as your fuel lasts.

For boom and zoom you come in at a significant E advantage, whether that's climbing with the throttle in full burner and being 200 kts faster then the other guys Vne, or dropping in from up high like a hawk on a mouse and diving away 400 knots faster then they are. If you come in with a comparable energy state you aren't booming and zooming, you are walking into a knife fight (bad plan). If the Mig is already throttled up, then don't play until you have a E advantage, throttles up (burner if needed) on and extend until you get speed/height/both. IF (big if) you can catch them at a major E disadvantage (say bouncing a Mig on final, where they are low AND slow), then you can successfully pounce without needing to already be at high speed, though you still need to have HIGHER speed and altitude so you can trade both of those to make room to escape.

Make no mistake a good (from way higher, and way faster) boom and zoom is straight up premeditated murder. Done correctly the other guy has almost 0 chance of escape, and should never even see it coming. It is by far the least "sporting" method of shooting an enemy down with guns, it is also incredibly effective. A fighter is meant to be good at killing enemy aircraft, not at providing a sporting contest to allow the two pilots to measure their stick and rudder skills. Treat the F-5 as a less pointy F-104 in this match up and you won't be far off how to win it.

-Jenrick

Jenrick - great comment. What makes this match trickier than the F-86/Bf 109 or F-14/A6M2 is that in both of those cases, the F-86 or F-14 can just go 100% and start climbing or zooming using weight & energy advantages. They can start "zooming" from a coequal head-on position. I did the same when I first transitioned from the P-51D to the F-86F-35 in DCS. I had great fun practicing using the Sabre's superior energy to soar above a flock of Bf 109s or Fw 190s and then swoop back down through them. This is my first time flying a more advanced fighter when I can't use turning OR sustained climb/zoom climb to beat an older airframe.

Your comments (and others here like Probad's) are helping me rethink my approach, which is exactly what I was hoping to gain when I posted the question. I'm definitely going to work on first getting supersonic, then using (and keeping) that energy advantage for the rest of the fight. BTW - this line is a keeper: "Make no mistake a good (from way higher, and way faster) boom and zoom is straight up premeditated murder."