Waypoint wierdness

I noticed that every time I place my waypoints directly over objects in the ME, when I run the simulation the actual waypoint is way off from where the objects are. I usually using something from the "Warehouses" menu (like the ammo depot) or an existing building on the map. I've even tried it over a TACAN transmitter. The effect is the same every time.

Even stranger, the coordinates of the object on the F10 map correspond to the ones entered into the navigation system.

I believe this is an ED issue, because the same thing occurs with the Viggen. The only reason I posted it here is the M2000C has a bombing mode that relies on this being accurate.

When I input the information for a BAD to do precision bombing, the waypoint cross and bombing symbology are way off from both F10 and ME, usually about about .30 or so nm, enough to make a big miss.

However, I've seen 3 videos on youtube showing this procedure used successfully, including a thread where Zeus (the dev) nails a bridge dead center. That thread had a forum user (Frederf I believe) who threw some pretty complex math, but I didn't understand any of the conclusions.

My question is, is there a way I don't know of to get waypoints where they are supposed to be and get precision mode to work properly?

Hmm, I was playing around with the mission editor and Viggen last night, and experienced the same issue. I had to place the marker a bit to the left of center to get the BK90 to cover the whole area I set up. I thought at first maybe I was doing something wrong, but after repeated tries with the waypoint at the center of the target, the bombs would fall to the left of center at the exact same place each time. As soon as I adjusted the waypoint to compensate, it worked perfectly.

I noticed that every time I place my waypoints directly over objects in the ME, when I run the simulation the actual waypoint is way off from where the objects are. I usually using something from the "Warehouses" menu (like the ammo depot) or an existing building on the map. I've even tried it over a TACAN transmitter. The effect is the same every time.

...

My question is, is there a way I don't know of to get waypoints where they are supposed to be and get precision mode to work properly?

Last time I checked the HUD waypoint reticle/marker was misaligned / had parallax error.

The 'real' centre was approx. 1/3 of the way up (7-8 pixels @ 1080X1920) from the centre pip.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3570548&postcount=30

This means you need to designate targets/waypoints with the M-2000C's pipper slightly in front of the target/object.

By way of comparison, the error on the Harriers HUD is 2-3 pixels @ 1080X1920.

I don't think it's parralax as the bomb drop guidance cues and the viggen ag radar would ignore it. I think it's a translation error when the world is rendered. Though the grid is 2d the world exhibits some "magic" to render curvature to simulate radar horizon and such. This throws the map grid out of sync with the "real" world. At least that's my theory. Perhaps someone with knowlege of the engine could tell us how to compensate to get bombs on target.

You guys ever heard of INS drift?

Especially the Mirage, the Tomcat and the Viggen are very badly affected by it. Thats the reason why you have to do nav fixes.

You guys ever heard of INS drift?

Especially the Mirage, the Tomcat and the Viggen are very badly affected by it. Thats the reason why you have to do nav fixes.

This!

Also make sure you use the correct coordinate system. The Mirage uses the decimal seconds, while the Tomcat and the Viggen use normal seconds. You can switch between the different systems on the F10 map by pressing Alt+Z (or Alt+Y?). You have to move your mouse cursor after each press to make the coordinate display actually change on the F10 map.

You guys ever heard of INS drift?

Especially the Mirage, the Tomcat and the Viggen are very badly affected by it. Thats the reason why you have to do nav fixes.

INS drift *may* be the OP's issue, however I assume he's disabled INS drift or performing a 'nav fix' before commencing an attack / assessing the waypoint position.

Note: A nav fix in the M-2000C is always 'perfect' as alignment 'nav fix' error isn't modelled in DCS.

Hmm, I was playing around with the mission editor and Viggen last night, and experienced the same issue.

AFAIK both the Viggen and Tomcat model INS drift and nav fix errors, so some error is normal/expected.

Note: A nav fix in the M-2000C is always 'perfect' as alignment 'nav fix' error isn't modelled in DCS.

Do you mean an INS Position Update ? If so, INS Position update error used to be possible in the Mirage some time ago (long time ago). It would update the INS with designed position.

But a bug introduced a while ago make every position update perfect now, it doesn't take into account the designed spot anymore (as long as you're within update tolerance parameters)

Do you mean an INS Position Update ?

Yes

If so, INS Position update error used to be possible in the Mirage some time ago (long time ago). It would update the INS with designed position.

That's possible as I bought the M-2000C in June 2017 (1.5.6), 18 months after it's initial early access release (1.5.2).

At that time, IIRC, INS drift was modelled but it was impossible to make an incorrect position update and AFAIK, it is still the case.

It's not ins drift tests run with it disabled. Try it yourself. Very easy test to run. Also PI bombing requires fix to be done which are currently 100% accurate. Target is just over 5nm from IP.

See for yourself. Place an object or select a building in the ME. Zoom all the way in and drop a waypoint on top of it. Spawn your Mirage about 9nm away. Disable INS drift. Observe the waypoint cross. You will see it is well off. Now make a BAD to some other object close by. Observe that is way off, too.

There's a large thread partially about this from a year back. No conclusions drawn and no one's mentioned it since. Can someone run this test and tell me if it'a just me?

AFAIK both the Viggen and Tomcat model INS drift and nav fix errors, so some error is normal/expected.

Doesn't INS drift accumulate after some time? The mission I set up has me hitting the target about a minute after I spawn. Either way, I'll give it a try with INS drift off.

Ok just did a whole lot more testing on this.

This issue is definitely isolated to the M2000C.

The Viggen's waypoints sink "into the ground" with TEMPERATURE. The colder the ambient temp, the more below surface the waypoint goes. However, this is just a parallax issue. If you go run a NAV bombing profile, your bombs will be bang on. The waypoint ring will appear to be closer to you than the object you put it over, because it is actually LOWER.

However, none of this is the case with the Mirage. The waypoint is actually wrong. It is not in the same place as it was set in the ME. At least as far as the Mirage's computer thinks. Your bombs will ACTUALLY miss. Since NAV updates don't really work there is no way around this. Your coordinates will match up to the object, but the Mirage computer thinks they exist somewhere else. Again, this is NOT BECAUSE OF DRIFT. The Viggen drifts, too (no GPS), and these problems do not exist with the Viggen.

So, add this to the list of things that need to be fixed. It's a rather big thing, too, as no INS bombing profiles are possible with any degree of accuracy whatsoever as long as this issue exists.

Ok just did a whole lot more testing on this.

 

This issue is definitely isolated to the M2000C.

 

The Viggen's waypoints sink "into the ground" with TEMPERATURE. The colder the ambient temp, the more below surface the waypoint goes. However, this is just a parallax issue. If you go run a NAV bombing profile, your bombs will be bang on. The waypoint ring will appear to be closer to you than the object you put it over, because it is actually LOWER.

 

However, none of this is the case with the Mirage. The waypoint is actually wrong. It is not in the same place as it was set in the ME. At least as far as the Mirage's computer thinks. Your bombs will ACTUALLY miss. Since NAV updates don't really work there is no way around this. Your coordinates will match up to the object, but the Mirage computer thinks they exist somewhere else. Again, this is NOT BECAUSE OF DRIFT. The Viggen drifts, too (no GPS), and these problems do not exist with the Viggen.

 

So, add this to the list of things that need to be fixed. It's a rather big thing, too, as no INS bombing profiles are possible with any degree of accuracy whatsoever as long as this issue exists.

Sorry, but what you are writing makes no sense for me. Maybe language barrier ?

I don't know the Viggen, and every time somebody talks about its weapon system it gives head heck...

INS doesn't care about temperature.

Mirage 2000C INS system is supposed to drift at a rate of roughly 1 Nm/hr.

This is why it isn't supposed to perform blind attack on INS coordinates.

Direct CCRP or CCPI necessitate target visual acquisition. The target position is presented with a + in the HUD, but this only an help to locate the real target. You have to perform target designation with the diamond, and the weapon system will guide you to attack this position, not the +.

You don't need to input target's position into the PCN to attack, it isn't mandatory, it's only help.

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CCRP + BAD loft bombing is supposed to be used for area attack, and does rely on INS coordinates.

But it's a back up for when the weather won't allow visual acquisition or if the threat over target area is too great.

Because of INS drift, you have to designate the initial point, which serve as 3D INS update.(Lat/ Long/ Alt).

Currently in this mode the auto release doesn't work, so it isn't really functional.

Drift does work, the bug being that the update is "perfect".

Sorry, but what you are writing makes no sense for me. Maybe language barrier ?

 

 

I don't know the Viggen, and every time somebody talks about its weapon system it gives head heck...

 

INS doesn't care about temperature.

 

 

Mirage 2000C INS system is supposed to drift at a rate of roughly 1 Nm/hr.

This is why it isn't supposed to perform blind attack on INS coordinates.

 

Direct CCRP or CCPI necessitate target visual acquisition. The target position is presented with a + in the HUD, but this only an help to locate the real target. You have to perform target designation with the diamond, and the weapon system will guide you to attack this position, not the +.

You don't need to input target's position into the PCN to attack, it isn't mandatory, it's only help.

 

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CCRP + BAD loft bombing is supposed to be used for area attack, and does rely on INS coordinates.

 

But it's a back up for when the weather won't allow visual acquisition or if the threat over target area is too great.

Because of INS drift, you have to designate the initial point, which serve as 3D INS update.(Lat/ Long/ Alt).

 

Currently in this mode the auto release doesn't work, so it isn't really functional.

 

 

Drift does work, the bug being that the update is "perfect".

Precision bombing (mode "PI") DOES require coordinates. Your BAD is only as good as the IP's coordinates. It should be accurate to within 30m, less if you loft. That is not the issue here.

The Viggen was simply a control for the experiment to determine if the issue was DCS or the Mirage module. In the Viggen the QFE must be manually set, so it's navigation system DOES care about temperature, but that is a tangent and not related to the Mirages issue.

Please perform the test outlined above to see for yourself. It is definitely broken. Your waypoints are not where they should be. Drift has nothing to do with it.

Coordinates accuracy is one thing, impact accuracy is another thing.

In the Mirage, so far, without INS drift enable, the waypoint is where it should be.

With INS drift enable, the waypoint will be somewhere next to it...because of the drift.

The waypoint is NOT where it should be. Please perform the experiment. Iam not complaining about bomb accuracy. The accuracy is quite good in PI mode. It hits wherever the cross ends up. That cross is in the wrong position because the IP waypoint (and every other waypoint) is wrong.

Please. I've given you a way to repeat the error. Before you conclude it works please perform the experiment. It takes 5 minutes to do and only rudimentary skills in the mission editor

The waypoint is NOT where it should be. Please perform the experiment. Iam not complaining about bomb accuracy. The accuracy is quite good in PI mode. It hits wherever the cross ends up. That cross is in the wrong position because the IP waypoint (and every other waypoint) is wrong.

 

Please. I've given you a way to repeat the error. Before you conclude it works please perform the experiment. It takes 5 minutes to do and only rudimentary skills in the mission editor

I have witnessed it also during a mission in Persian Gulf this week. Waypoint was set on a house in a corner of a town in Mission Editor for an INS Position Update, but when flying with no drift option active, waypoint marker was in the middle of the city.

When i moved the waypoint in the editor to a crossroad point near the house, then waypoint marker was correct during the flight (still no drift activated)

The Viggen was simply a control for the experiment to determine if the issue was DCS or the Mirage module.

I don't understand what you wanted to determine there? The drifting function is not a core DCS function. Both RAZBAM and Heatblur have developed their own drifting functions that are totally unrelated to each other.

It's not ins drift tests run with it disabled. Try it yourself. Very easy test to run. Also PI bombing requires fix to be done which are currently 100% accurate. Target is just over 5nm from IP.

 

See for yourself. Place an object or select a building in the ME. Zoom all the way in and drop a waypoint on top of it. Spawn your Mirage about 9nm away. Disable INS drift. Observe the waypoint cross. You will see it is well off. Now make a BAD to some other object close by. Observe that is way off, too.

 

There's a large thread partially about this from a year back. No conclusions drawn and no one's mentioned it since. Can someone run this test and tell me if it'a just me?

Hi there,

I had some spare time and I did run the test a few minutes ago. I could not replicate your problem, I'm running the latest stable release.

You'll find three screenshots attached to this post :

1. The mission editing
   
2. First pass over the DEST - the cross is where it should be
   
3. Second pass a few minutes later from the opposite direction - the cross is still in the correct spot
   

Before performing a full CCPL + PI bombing mission, I did a navigation test, 30mn flight.

I did it twice.

Once with "Options/ Special/ M-2000C/ Disable Gyro Drift" boxed.

All my waypoints were in place.

Second time with "Options/ Special/ M-2000C/ Disable Gyro Drift" unboxed.

The waypoints drift over time.

What you can see in the screenshot is what you can expect. You have to update your INS either by vertical overfly or with OBL ranging (see in the manual for detailed procedure).

The red cross is where the waypoint should be.

I did perform INS update, but I didn't try to update next to the waypoint to check if I can trick the system.

Note about MP:

The mission designer has the possibility to enforce INS Alignment and Gyro Drift. It will override your settings in "Options/ Special/ M-2000C/"

@LastRifleRound:

It seems you have wrong assumptions based on DCS Viggen experience.

I don't have the module, but from I have been told, the plane has special features to auto update the INS system/ lower the drift (like doppler or things like that).

But the DCS Viggen is a dedicated strike fighter. Navigation accuracy is paramount.

Mirage 2000C is a homeland interceptor first. 1Nm/hr is about the best you can do with a single INS system for that time era, and it's perfectly fine for air defense.

France has total radar coverage, plenty of airbase/ airport, and plenty of TACAN/ VOR-DME.

Dedicated strike variants like the Mirage 2000N (retired)/ Mirage 2000D have 2 INS systems, comparing both with Kalman filters, and they can perform double alignment on both INS systems to go well below 1Nm/hr drift.They have mapping radar update (not in the Mirage 2000C) and now embedded GPS (again, not in Mirage 2000C).

Back to CCPL + PI bombing, this little software is very handy. Unfortunately only works for Caucasus so far.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3481517

I will post screenshots. Perhaps this is isolated to the caucuses? It's the only map I currently have. You appear to be at Nellis or the Gulf. Also are you on stable or beta? I am running stable.

I will post images tonight. Maybe there's something wrong with my module.

It def has NOTHING to do with drift. I even OBL update to eliminate the possibility. The cross is still off.

Nevermind just saw 33's reply.

Quigon, drift isn't core dcs but waypoint placement in ME is. That is what I was testing.

It seems Steph had the same issue.

Could there be something wrong with my module specifically? I'll post those images so you can see I'm not crazy.

Nevermind just saw 33's reply.

 

Quigon, drift isn't core dcs but waypoint placement in ME is. That is what I was testing.

 

It seems Steph had the same issue.

 

Could there be something wrong with my module specifically? I'll post those images so you can see I'm not crazy.

I do not doubt you are experiencing a problem. Something similar happened to me once as I was the only one having a problem with the radar in the squadron ; I had to uninstall the module and reinstall it after a repair to recover the use of my equipment. C'est la vie !

Ok just ran a bunch of missions with the Mirage. I turned off the INS requiring alignment (NOT gyro drift, which was already disabled, meaning the box in the "special" settings was checked), re-ran one of my test missions, and the waypoint cross was right where it should be! Of course, it was below the target, but that's the normal parallax stuff that happens in DCS. No problem. Bombs on target.

I then enabled drift again and required INS alignment, started another in-flight mission, and bang-on again after an OBL alignment.

I then took the same mission, did a ramp start, aligned the INS according to the kneeboard, went to the waypoint and did an OBL and good again.

I don't know if turning on not requiring INS alignment and loading up a mission fixed something, but I swear the waypoints were way off before.

I've flown all 3 of my test missions, one including a PI profile and everything was working. I can routinely hit my target now.

Thank you very much guys. Not sure if I would have kept trying if you all didn't help. To anyone out there experiencing waypoint mis-alignment, check both boxes in the special settings re. INS, load up a mission and it should be fixed from that point forward.

I was on Nevada, I was cross checking navigation and external tank fuel dump to hit 2 birds with one stone.

Happy to see your problem solved.

I noticed the parallax too.

For the record, IRL, a 4 Gen fighter with radar telemetry putting dumb bomb inside 20 meters of the target is a good show.

Not so much in DCS World because of damage model, but they said months ago they were working on it...