Transition from bvr to wvr - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-10-2019, 05:56 PM   #1
DeltaMike
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 209
Default Transition from bvr to wvr

RIO in training here, with question about workflow management in the transition from bvr into turning dogfight. How do you guys hand off between pilot and RIO acm modes?

I'm assuming RIO is gonna try to get the bad guy locked up manually. If that doesn't work, it sounds like MRL is kind of useless. Does RIO try VSL or does he just say "YOU lock him up" and assume the pilot will take over VSL or what-have-you

From the back seat it looks like VSL is momentary, so I guess you hold the switch and wait for the lock?
__________________
Ryzen 5 2600 (4.0GHz), B450M, 16Gb RAM, Vega 56 (undervolt), T16000M, Oculus Rift
DeltaMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2019, 06:24 PM   #2
Tirak
Senior Member
 
Tirak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: On the Move... Again
Posts: 1,181
Default

The way me and my buddy do it is a simple handoff. If I think I've got the better chance I'll call "Radar is mine". If he thinks he has the better chance or it's outside of range he'll say something akin to"Give me back the radar" which I'll then either respond a negative or "You have the Radar." If I don't take the radar by using the PLM or calling it, the RIO keeps trying to do his job. If you want to remind the pilot he might have an easier time that's fine, but until the pilot takes the initiative you're running the microwave.
Tirak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2019, 12:20 PM   #3
probad
Senior Member
 
probad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,067
Default

depends on your relationship right?
i talk with my pilot through the entire engagement so we both can suss out each others confidence levels and it becomes trivial to figure out who to defer to as the fight develops.
just announce your actions for clarity.
__________________
hahaha hey look at me i surely know more about aviation and coding than actual industry professionals hired for their competency because i have read jalopnik and wikipedia i bet theyve never even heard of google LOL
probad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2019, 01:05 PM   #4
Pikey
Veteran
 
Pikey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Reading, UK (GMT)
Posts: 3,412
Default

It's not as hard to figure out as you might think. It's mainly driven by tally/no joy.


If the lock is lost somehow, and that does happen, I found that it's down to the reliability and confidence the RIO has with the SA on his brain/scope. By that I mean that I tell the pilot when I don't have confidence in it, we are too close, couldn't get a reliable lock or whatever and suggest he uses eyeballs and takes over. I say it quite deliberately as you get a very bad feeling if you get close without tally, and it's the one thing you are looking for, since radar has poor coverage close in.


At the point where it's too close and we are merging or already merged then the harder thing is to get the head back down to the TID to see if it had a momentary glimpse of an update, because once heads up, heads down is hard and vice-versa. Whereas the pilot can have the comfort of being heads up nearly all the time, so it is indeed pretty much driven by the RIO when it's me (I have an easy and trusting pilot) and either having the lock or not, joining the visual arena.
__________________
“Six better fuses and we would have lost.”
Pikey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2019, 06:01 PM   #5
Home Fries
Senior Member
 
Home Fries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Greater Washington DC Area
Posts: 2,584
Default

The key is assertive crew coordination. There are times to ask questions and times to be directive. Those times aren't set in stone, but depend on with whom you fly and your comfort level with them.

A pilot should always announce when he's taking the radar. Otherwise, a RIO going into super search can ruin a pilot's track. Similarly, a pilot should announce when he no longer needs the radar, either because the target is splashed or he lost lock and can't get it back. Similarly, if a pilot takes the radar, the RIO should go to the ATTK display so he gets a repeater of the STT symbology. However, if the RIO goes to TCS mode (which is normal in WVR combat), the only way to know if the lock is broken is to look at the DDD, and even then it's quicker and better for the pilot to tell the RIO so he doesn't have to interpret the DDD.

If I'm RIO and I notice that the bandit is splashed, unless we're still in WVR with tally on multiple bandits I notify the pilot that I'm taking the radar. At that point, he can be directive with me if he wants to keep the radar. If a pilot is maneuvering and isn't specifying what he's doing with the radar (or if I see us still in TWS), I'll tell the pilot that I'm giving him VSL High unless he wants VSL Low. Then all he needs to do is put his lift vector on the bandit. Sometimes the pilots are too busy maneuvering to think about the radar, and this is where a good RIO can help in WVR.

Finally, if a bandit breaks 10nm, I'll notify the pilot to go to ACM mode and have him start thinking about taking the radar. The closer the bandit is and the more vertical displacement that exists between the F-14 and the bandit, the more difficult it will be to get the bandit on radar from the back seat. Times like this I'll recommend VSL high, then be more directive as we approach 5nm.

Hope this helps.
__________________
-Home Fries
Fear the Bolts!


The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.


My DCS Files and Skins
My DCS TARGET Profile for Cougar or Warthog and MFDs

Last edited by Home Fries; 05-12-2019 at 11:45 PM.
Home Fries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2019, 12:53 AM   #6
DeltaMike
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 209
Default

Thanks. Most important theme is the positive handoff, "You have the radar." Sounds like VSL high is a good way to nudge things in the right direction
__________________
Ryzen 5 2600 (4.0GHz), B450M, 16Gb RAM, Vega 56 (undervolt), T16000M, Oculus Rift
DeltaMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 07:23 PM   #7
IronMike
Member
 
IronMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Austria
Posts: 484
Default

It really boils down to crew management.

Most hand off the radar at PAL range if situation allows, which would be around 15nm. Good RIOs will already setup VSL HI or VLS LO for you though, once you hit the 5nm mark.

Personally when I fly, I only "grab" the radar for PAL, mostly following my RIO saying "radar is yours" and in a dogfight I ask him for VSLs depending on RIO. Some RIOs I trust to give me the correct VSL more.

When he is centered within 5nm on the nose, I use PLM though.

The imoprtant thing is to use good communications and keep each other informed, so that actions by pilot and RIO do not cancel each other out.
__________________
Heatblur Simulations

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

http://www.heatblur.com/

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/
IronMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 08:06 PM   #8
=BJM=
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 848
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMike View Post
It really boils down to crew management.

Most hand off the radar at PAL range if situation allows, which would be around 15nm. Good RIOs will already setup VSL HI or VLS LO for you though, once you hit the 5nm mark.

Personally when I fly, I only "grab" the radar for PAL, mostly following my RIO saying "radar is yours" and in a dogfight I ask him for VSLs depending on RIO. Some RIOs I trust to give me the correct VSL more.

When he is centered within 5nm on the nose, I use PLM though.

The imoprtant thing is to use good communications and keep each other informed, so that actions by pilot and RIO do not cancel each other out.
Great stuff! Thanks!

Will the handing off of radar and handling of VSL modes be implemented with the Jester AI as well?
__________________
i5 7600K @4.6GHz | 1080 Ti | 32GB 3200MHz | SSD | 27" 2560x1440p | X-55 HOTAS and Pro Flight Rudder | TrackIR 5 | VoiceAttack
=BJM= is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 03:04 AM   #9
IronMike
Member
 
IronMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Austria
Posts: 484
Default

[QUOTE==BJM=;3912031]Great stuff! Thanks!

Will the handing off of radar and handling of VSL modes be implemented with the Jester AI as well?[/QUOTE

I don't think so, since Jester knows when you enter WVR and it is thus kind of obsolete. It would be a nice touch of course, but I think there would be more pressing issues to introduce first. The main problem is though: Jester cannot really know you and what personal preferences you have as a pilot, like a real RIO would. Some players might develop a different style and push PAL launches down to 10nm etc, so this mutual understanding of two individuals of flesh and blood is not really possible and could benefit one player, but "upset" another. Probably best to leave it so that you just "grab" it with your target designator controls.
__________________
Heatblur Simulations

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

http://www.heatblur.com/

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/
IronMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:44 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.