Using the TM Warthog Hotas with the Mustang

I agree with you entirely, bilbosmeggins. Flew DCS Warthog and Mustang months ago, and have come back to play with Combined Arms. But decided I had have another go at the A-10 and -51. All of which is to say I've been here, done this. And having to configure that Warthog joystick all over again and rip out rudder assignments on the throttle is just stupid. Default assignments may not be perfect for everyone (one size fits none), but they should at least be close!

Having made an input controller (admittedly a simple electrical panel for the A-10C) it's not as easy as plug and play. The TM Hotas was built with DCS in mind which is why the plug and play works, but generic controllers do not work that way. Each button and switch has to be configured in the controller's software to a button that is recognized by windows/the sim. Asking for every single hardware device to be plug and play with every sim is nearly impossible so don't expect it to happen.

True, kk0425, but we're talking about the Thrustmaster Warthog here, the device that a lot of people have because they bought the A-10.

Of course. But the P-51D is not the same as the A-10C. Can't really expect the default setup to work out of the box.

You're right, a P-51 is not an A-10. That's precisely why the P-51 program, which is a different computer program than the A-10C program, should have a default joystick set up that's different and works!

A P-51 isn't a Sopwith Camel, either. But when I launch Rise of Flight I'm offered several joystick setups that work. Just because the P-51 and the A-10 programs are both published by DCS is no excuse for having default controller profiles that don't work.

More to the point, the way the defaults are set up now is just sloppy. To give the devs the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they have bigger issues to address and simply haven't had time to fix this. Done right, there should be a profile for each of the top controllers that we can use as a starting point: Thrustmaster, Saitek, Logitech, CH, Microsoft. Hell, there are enough user created profiles floating around out there that they could package some of them, with permission and gratitude.

People who buy the Mustang absolutely can, and should, expect it to work right out of the box as bilbosmeggins says. Particularly considering almost everything else about it is superb.

Let me ask you something. Does the P-51 have a DMS? How about a TMS? A trim hat? Pinkie switch? CMS switch? Two stage trigger? Master mode button? What about all the buttons and switches on the just the throttle? Throw in all the ones on the whole quadrant and what do you do with those? What about all the stuff the P-51 has that the TM Hotas doesn't? What gets mapped to where? How exactly is the TM Hotas supposed to work out of the box with the P-51? What happens when they make a default profile that nobody likes? What makes sense to map what where? Do you see where I'm going with this?

Mapping button/switch one to joystick button one in the controller firmware does not guarantee that same button/switch will work the way one end user expects it to. Joystick button 1 could be the gun trigger on one plane, but it could be the weapons release on another. I believe, and could be wrong since I don't fly the Su-27, but it doesn't have a dedicated gun trigger and separate weapons release. So that trigger now doesn't operate the gun but instead the missiles, where on the A-10, the trigger operates the guns, and the weapons release operates the bombs, missiles, etc...

People should never expect TM Warthog Hotas to work out of the box for a plane it was never designed for. Expecting anything otherwise is simply just lazy. And to be honest the whole point of this thread seems like a whine. Nothing more. I offered my input as to why a Hotas designed for a completely different airplane will never work out of the box. If you disagree then I'm sorry, but you are really expecting too much. No developer or manufacture will never know what mappings you want.

That's an odd position to take, given that the default joystick settings in DCS are absolute crap and that my first step on buying a new platform is to clear them all.

The Warthog HOTAS in particular is a well-known device that has a pre-existing DCS profile. Would it be so hard to make a profile that assigns the axes in a sensible way? If I had a Warthog, I might want to switch prop RPM/manifold pressure around, but it's a pretty safe bet that I'd want one on one throttle and one on the other. In the same way, if I have something called 'CH Pro Pedals' or 'CH Throttle Quadrant' plugged in, you can be pretty sure I don't want pitch and roll on those.

............in it's most basic of forms, "Out of the Box" so to speak.

As I said in post 14, all that is being asked is that the modules can at least be piloted. I have a certain amount of experience of configuring input devices built up over the years. I can get by. Just about. It sounds like a lot of you have a great deal more experience than I have with configuring and setting up. And that's great, and I applaud you all for it. But how about the absolute newcomer to flight simming who has heard great things about DCS? Does it seem fair that he/she is going to completely fail to control the aircraft even in arcade mode? It could put them off for life.

And I even went to great lengths to explain that of course I realise that the Warthog HOTAS is unique to that craft. No one is asking that every switch, dial and rotary be mapped perfectly. It's not possible. But "...in it's most basic of forms" is all that is asked. And, as Tailspin45 quite rightly said, these profiles already exist. No-one is asking for ED to embark upon a load more work. Just share them out. Make them available.

And as regards this thread just being an excuse for having a whine........ I find that quite offensive. I have a life. I don't get a kick out of moaning for moaning's sake. I believed (and still do) that I have a valid point. If you don't agree then that's fine and all part of life's rich tapestry, but please don't try to turn it into some sort of war. That's what the sim is for :)

kk0425, perhaps you think the functions of the A-10 aircraft are somehow baked into the Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle controllers? They aren't, they're defined by the profiles we're talking about here. Perhaps the source of the misunderstanding we're all grappling with?

One profile defines the APU Start switch for the A-10, another profile might define the same switch for, say, the P-51's coolant manual/auto switch. Both profiles, though, should assign the pitch and roll axis to the joystick. And a profile should never, as fishbreath points out, assign a throttle binding to a rudder pedal controller.

I'm with you and him, by the way on the idea that everyone will want to do some customizing by modifying the profile. I'd put the P-51 throttle on the left TM A-10 throttle, too, and the prop pitch on the right because thats what I'm used to flying in our SNJ. Technically, the Mustang throttle is on the right, but that's because of the motorcycle type grip.

Off topic, but a measure of how well the P-51 is modeled, and a real tribute to the devs, is that they found a way to make the tailwheel lock work just like it does in the real aircraft. Our SNJ has a P-51 tailwheel and rigging, so you simply push the stick all the way forward to unlock it and let the tailswheel swivel. Pull the stick back, center the tire and the locking pin is spring loaded to drop in the hole so it become stear-able again. Try a sharp turn without doing that and you'll either murder the poor tire or break the pin. Not sure they modeled the brake-the-pin part, but the unlocking part certainly is as I discovered last night when I ended up facing backwards on the runway trying to make a turn off at too high a speed. (In the sim, not real life!)

I wasn't trying to turn this into a war. I offered my thoughts on why expecting things to just simply work because you plugged it into the PC is expecting a bit much. The X axis on rudders to the sim is identical to the X axis on a throttle or joystick. The sim doesn't know the difference. The default profile for the TM Hotas is custom built by ED from what I've been told. They worked together on it to make sure it worked without any configuration. "Whine" may have been too harsh, but I still see it as a complaint that doesn't make any sense to me.

perhaps you think the functions of the A-10 aircraft are somehow baked into the Thrustmaster Warthog stick and throttle controllers?

The X axis on rudders to the sim is identical to the X axis on a throttle or joystick. The sim doesn't know the difference.

Right, an x-axis is an x-axis is an x-axis. That's why we have profiles so the x-axis on one controller can be assigned as pitch and as throttle on another and as rudder an another. So why would the default profile assign throttle to all three?

The default profile for the TM Hotas is custom built by ED from what I've been told. They worked together on it to make sure it worked without any configuration.

I hope not, because that means the mess we have was created on purpose, which I seriously doubt. The default A-10 profile works pretty well without configuration, you're right. The default P-51 profile not at all! That was the point to the original post.

..................... I offered my thoughts on why expecting things to just simply work because you plugged it into the PC is expecting a bit much...............

That's the whole point. It's expecting very little. This is the Warthog HOTAS, of which ED has a great deal of experience with (If I'd made the controller out of cardboard tubes in the potting shed I'd be inclined to agree with you). If you were to tell me that each user of the DCS modules had a different controller setup for each craft flown then that would make some sort of sense. But I would be incredibly surprised if they did. Most use just one setup to cover all bases. Therefore, as a natural consequence, compromises have to be made when flying other modules. Put another way, the Warthog HOTAS is being widely used to pilot craft other than the A-10C, by consumers and developers alike. So share them out. It's not like the code is going to be hard-wired in and you are stuck with a profile you don't like now is it? Customisation and alteration is always an option.

Alternatively, just let things lie the way they are. And make "hurdles" and "inaccessibility" become by-words for ED's products.

.......... Or not!! Must say that I'm incredibly disappointed. I, like many others, bought the Warthog Hotas so that it would integrate fully with the A-10C. Which it does, magnificently. So, given this big user-base that ED have created, I kinda figured that there would be some sort of integration with the Warty HOTAS and the other modules. Now obviously there would be compromises as it is no longer tailor-made for the other craft. But there's just nothing. Tried the HOTAS with the Mustang earlier, and, apart from the actual joystick, nothing was mapped. At least not sensibly. Tried to apply the throttle and found that the flaps were moving. 99% of the other buttons were lifeless.

 

After digging around on these forums it appears that these profiles have to be configured individually. I'm not a software programmer and have no desire to be poking around modifying lua files and what not. I did just try to map the controls in the options menu expecting to just be able to press a control and have it assigned to whatever I chose like most other sims I've tried in the past, but no. It wants to know what each button and switch is called. Really? I know that these are study sims and I'm more than prepared to put in the time and effort. But study software? Am I missing something obvious somewhere? I was fully intending to splash out and fill the hangar on the 20th (sale date), but if it means having lifeless aircraft that I cannot commit to the skies without utilising the keyboard for all the input then it kinda kills it for me.

 

I know I'm probably in the minority here, as most of you lot are merrily programming away, and configuring things just how you like them. But I have neither the time nor the expertise to follow in your footsteps. What little time that I do have I was hoping to spend on flying. Please someone tell me that I'm wrong, and things are a lot more simple than they appear to be......:cry:

Boy! I read though this whole thread, and I feel the EXACT SAME as the original poster here, and I am quite surprised by the reaction of some of the posters who followed. I too bought the Warthog Hotas and was shocked there is little to no readily available BASIC profiles Available either in the game or the forum here. (That's how I found this thread looking for same)

I Too have little time right now and just wanted to do some Basic flying.

as I have time in the winter later I can dive into the real specifics and map to my hearts content. and learn and tweak etc.

In the meantime I have little desire to try to figure out the amazingly complex (for me) software

for the hotas and the sim when I have maybe one hour at the end of the

day to do some fun flying and relax with it a bit and a pre programed

BASIC set up would allow me to do that and over time tweak this and that

to make it more realistic.

I did the exact same crash as the OP did as well . Not a fun 1st go at it.

I am certain this will be much easier after I have done it a few times

but it is DAUNTING to say the very least esp when you really don't understand all the specific terms and procedures you need to make all this work correctly and have little time to learn all you need to know just to integrate a pair of ch pedals and a warthhog hotas to do a pattern flight.

I could seriously use a step by step Plain English tutorial to get the basic functions to work.

I am not an idiot but Gee this really makes me feel very under qualified

just getting the hardware set up.

The worst part is, For many years I actually was a certified pilot and have had over 2000 hrs of flight time though I have not flown for real in many years I wanted and saved for a long time to get back into flying even though only a sim. I expected to not have to spend so much time just learning how to to make this computer work for it to be usable even if only in the most basic way.

I honestly expected more hardware support than I have found to date.

And yes, I did buy the TM Hotas because of DCS.

Not trying to Whine, but clearly I did not expect this level of frustration just to get the basics working and I understand PERFECTLY the OP's position.

Wyo.

I'm not sure I completely agree. I have the Warthog HOTAS and and got the P-51 last night, and while it's annoying mapping the buttons manually it's not that hard.

You find the command you want to map in the list, you move across to find the column for Joystick or Throttle, double click the corresponding cell and press the button on the throttle or stick you want to use to assign it. It even tells you if it's in use for another action.

You don't need to know what the buttons are called - you press the button and it gets assigned. The only thing you appear to have to know is the axis (as those you have to pick from a dropdown).

Probably takes 30 mins to get set up, and having done so you know it's set up how you want it.

Given the Warthog HOTAS is designed for that A/C, I don't think it's that surprising that you have to set it up manually for other A/C as each individual is likely to want to map the non-matching buttons differently.

Just my 2c :)

The only thing you appear to have to know is the axis (as those you have to pick from a dropdown).

 

Actually, you don't have to select from the drop down. If you move the desired axis through its full range of motion and back, it will appear just like the buttons do.

I fly every DCS sim on the TMWH, i have no difficulties adjusting to each Aircraft i fly, from the A10 to the MI-8, i dont have a collective but the throttle maps well to emulate a collective. the THMW has proven to be versatile and a solid HOTAS that does nearly everything i ask it to do, i am not an employee of Thrustmaster. I am no programmer or tech wizkid, but ever since my first day when i started flying sims i have always found an answer in this forum and people willling to help solve problems. I have even written a few configs for some of the various aircraft as well. For just a few moments searching on the forums you will generally get a fix / answer to 99% of the "joys of simming", as you no doubt have found out at this level of sim, such as DCS etc its not a video game or fast play buy it and play video game. Maybe for those that are too challenged or are unable to 'fit into the groove' then this is not for you. As for peripherals such as HOTAS etc etc you will never get a 100% 'fit to type' unless you have a well heeled wallet. So hence we here in 'Sim land" do stuff to make it work. Thats part of the deal. If you want to keep it simple then maybe this is not for you.

Heres a past thread I started as well with my profile i made : http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=88313

I'm surprised I didn't dump this in earlier in the thread. If anyone's still having an issue mapping the TM Warthog for the P-51D, here's my pre-made profile along with a guide on customizing it. That should help as a starting point, at least.

Well I am glad you have no problem with this Strut.

If there ever was a pair of products that should be fully supported across all the platforms released it should be be the DCS/TMWH.

It is insane that that the user should be force to remap a throttle for what if any of the brands should be a supported product.

It has been years since I have done sims, obviously the whole platform has regressed in some respects and leaps forward in others.

You accept the fact that BASIC flight controls are horribly

mapped within the same platform of sims show a willingness to

accept substandard performance from DCS.

there is NO Reason the throttle should not be mapped to the Throttle

on a sim with in the same platform. Esp with the flagship Hotas.

I have been on some pretty damn complex projects over the years, and I know piss poor performance when I see it. Granted, computers are not my gig and obviously I have much more to learn, but with limited per day time I had hoped to spend my time learning the AC not the hardware implementation in the most basic of flight fundamentals.

I'm surprised I didn't dump this in earlier in the thread. If anyone's still having an issue mapping the TM Warthog for the P-51D, here's my pre-made profile along with a guide on customizing it. That should help as a starting point, at least.

Oh wow THANK-YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You posted whilst I was on a Rant, Been a long hard road to get to the point of actually getting this sim, I needed a good enough computer and Finaly got one but it was coruppted so I had to go though hell and high water to get it back up and running ... included a Bios reflash off of a thumbdrive and much more hate and discontent to get it up...... then I got 3 monitors but one died on the second day then the vid card failed..............so I bought a new one.

I maybe would have gone n videa but the one that died was 1 day out of warranty when it failed and they would not do squat about it even after I had returned it to them they held it was out of warranty and would sell me a refurb card for more than Newegg would sell it to me for new.

so I got a 7990 for 600.00. I hope it works out.

I hope I can figure it out to make your map work!

Any advice on getting the Ch pro pedals to work well? ( they are old from my previous FS days)

Wyo

Well I am glad you have no problem with this Strut.

 

And probably the multitude of people who own DCS and TMWH HOTAS.

 

 

It has been years since I have done sims, obviously the whole platform has regressed in some respects and leaps forward in others.

You accept the fact that BASIC flight controls are horribly

mapped within the same platform of sims show a willingness to

accept substandard performance from DCS.

there is NO Reason the throttle should not be mapped to the Throttle

on a sim with in the same platform. Esp with the flagship Hotas.

Dont put words into my mouth, i dont accept your proposition, i dont find them horribly mapped, i find them quite simple to understand.

 

Yet in your post : "You posted whilst I was on a Rant, Been a long hard road to get to the point of actually getting this sim, I needed a good enough computer and Finaly got one but it was coruppted so I had to go though hell and high water to get it back up and running ... included a Bios reflash off of a thumbdrive and much more hate and discontent to get it up...... then I got 3 monitors but one died on the second day then the vid card failed..............so I bought a new one.

I maybe would have gone n videa but the one that died was 1 day out of warranty when it failed and they would not do squat about it even after I had returned it to them they held it was out of warranty and would sell me a refurb card for more than Newegg would sell it to me for new.

so I got a 7990 for 600.00. I hope it works out."

 

I cant help seeing someone in crisis.......maybe "Granted, computers are not my gig and obviously I have much more to learn "

 

Maybe you should take a deep breath and realise you have answered your own question.

I am Not impressed with your condescending tone, I seriously doubt you would take that tack with me if we were face to face.

Contrary to your position i am Far from in 'Crisis' I am irritated that a premium product is mapped so that throttle movement affects the rudder

and not the engine. Why have it mapped at all? if you immediately have to dump everything from the get go. That's just poor.

I was excited to be able to put together a computer and all the BS, finally after years of waiting and saving to get what i wanted just to hop in and do a quick circuit, only to find out I am still a ways away from that....

In the 70s and 80s I actually worked on 2 P51 restorations, On Chuck Doyles I actually got to run up the engine. It was a thrill, I never forgot it.

I learned to fly in a 1947 North American Navion. No.Americans attempted entry into the civilian post war market, it was 4 place and trike geared

but still retained the sliding canopy, for the most part they were Air Force

observation Planes and few sold in the civilian market.

There is much more to the story and not relevant for now but suffice to say after 2 tours in the USMC 20 years as a Vol Paramedic and Firefighter I have seen my fill of 'Crisis' Please don't cheapen the word.

Wyo

Once again Wyo, you have demonstrated the obvious. Your rants are irrational and dont bring any sense whatsoever to the table. Your irritation at the subject you brought up is open to debate, and what i said seems to be born out every time you type in this thread. As for you military service, if it is true, i congratulate you and have the utmost respect for the USMC. I am also ex military and served my country in a number of operational theaters and in one particular war along side the USMC and US Army. But one thing i dont hold too is having someone intimate a veiled threat, so some advice mate, whether your written expression is meant to be as you have put it or not, if your gonna try and piss over the wall, just make sure you know how high it is before you try, because it might come down on you. And if your little rant is a troll on our forum then i suggest that you hunt elsewhere. Or if in the doubtful instance that our comprehension of your written word we find that you are misunderstood, then i suggest you tone down your written style and try and come at it from a different angle, all i see are people trying to help you.

Actually, you don't have to select from the drop down. If you move the desired axis through its full range of motion and back, it will appear just like the buttons do.

Ahhhh thanks for that - I never tried the full range so thought it had to be chosen manually :)