Take Off in the Bf 109K-4

Yep, only need to be careful to adjust rudder slowly while speeding up.

You need to train that anyway, until it gets into muscle memory...

In crosswind situations you need to adjust rudder differently etc. ...and it sure as hell doesn't get easy over time. Every start requires full concentration and delicate control, like the real plane.

Yep, only need to be careful to adjust rudder slowly while speeding up.

You need to train that anyway, until it gets into muscle memory...

In crosswind situations you need to adjust rudder differently etc. ...and it sure as hell doesn't get easy over time. Every start requires full concentration and delicate control, like the real plane.

I'm uploading my take-off video... it's not perfect I know, but it's better than the alternative.... winging over and crashing :D

I also don't have rudder pedals, using twist joystick for rudder... For me it seems easier to use than the idea of using my feet. I know not realistic, but using my feet knowing I have a lead foot I think would be worse for me than using twist.

Well, the advantage of a rudder axis covering a 30-40cm movement rather than 3-4cm on a twist grip, gives you 10x more precision.

Yes, you need to train that and learn to move your feet sensible, but it comes natural after a few hours or days latest.

If you manage regular good take offs in the 109 with a twist stick, well, that's outright impressive.

Wait until you need differential braking on the landing... :musicwhistling:

Well, the advantage of a rudder axis covering a 30-40cm movement rather than 3-4cm on a twist grip, gives you 10x more precision.

Yes, you need to train that and learn to move your feet sensible, but it comes natural after a few hours or days latest.

If you manage regular good take offs in the 109 with a twist stick, well, that's outright impressive.

 

Wait until you need differential braking on the landing... :musicwhistling:

I use orientation a lot with twist... so in the video you will see, that I notice the nose of the aircraft going right, to me that's the Que to ease up on rudder slowly until lift-off.

The video shows the cockpit view and the external view of the take-off. I did it that way on purpose so I could see both aspects, as well as others if they require it.

It's not an instructional video, just more for my own purposes but if someone can get something out of it, then all the better.

Here's the video:

Not bad, especially considering that you don't have rudder pedals. With Pedals you have much better control though and it's easier to prevent the sideslip that's visible in your video.

@Shagrat: Well you CAN land it without differential braking if you nail the approach and there isn't a strong crosswind, but yes, it's a lot easier with differential braking ;)

OTHERS can manage to land it without differential braking, that is. I can't! :D

At the end of the roll I usually start to swerve and need to compensate...

I don't say you have to use rudders, but for me it is the most useful addition with TrackIR right next.

Not the MFG Crosswinds! :D

OTHERS can manage to land it without differential braking, that is. I can't! :D

At the end of the roll I usually start to swerve and need to compensate...

I don't say you have to use rudders, but for me it is the most useful addition with TrackIR right next.

I only need diff. brakes when I land with the tail wheel unlocked (and then I use them very carefully). Yes, I need rudder to compensate but without crosswind I usually don't use differential braking for that unless I make a mistake on the approach or want to stop quickly. It's way easier to tap the brakes individually than together :dunno:

Anyway this thread is about take off in the Bf 109^^

Rudder pedal ttravel is100 mm +-.

Hi Yo-Yo. I guess I misunderstood and actually you are right!

I had in mind the distance between the footholds, but they actually don't affect the axis. The parallelogram construct moves the actual axis and that's more like 10-12cm...

Yet compared to the 1-1.5cm full axis movement on my old Logitech 3D extreme it still is a factor of 10 to 1 ;)

[...] I just punch the throttle [...].

:thumbup: Although it is questionably "realistic" and obviously not intuitive for these birds, that right there is the key to taking off smoothly in both the DCS 109 and the DCS 190. Just go full throttle (without WEP) with right rudder (halfway is more than enough) and it'll takeoff smoother than an F86 :)

In DCS, the German birds need to pick up speed QUICK during takeoff (else torque (ironically), p and wash will overtake and kill you). Be mindful of that and you can take off without losing alignment with the centerline, even against a strong crosswind.

Although it is questionably "realistic" and obviously not intuitive for these birds, that right there is the key to taking off smoothly in both the DCS 109 and the DCS 190. Just go full throttle (without WEP) with right rudder (halfway is more than enough) and it'll takeoff smoother than an F86 :)

 

In DCS, the German birds need to pick up speed QUICK during takeoff (else torque (ironically), p and wash will overtake and kill you).

It is pretty realistic, actually, as it is exactly like what Eric Brunotte (WWII Bf-109 pilot) explained in his interview with Yo-Yo...

There is no irony in the torque killing you, as the raw horsepower of WWII taildraggers is usually some 400-500hp vs. today's sportsplane (taildragger) more around 100-200hp max.

With the new piston engine explosion modeling I advise to follow the manual/hints from Yo-Yo and set 1.2-1.4 ata quickly, but not(!) ram the throttle to full 1.8 ata without MW50!!! It won't survive that beating for long, now.

It is important to produce enough wash quickly, so the rudder gets effective... If you push it slowly, the torque and p-factor can't be countered as the wash isn't pushing the tail against the tendency to go left and you start drifting off.

The key is: full rudder from the start, releasing as the speed builds up, hold the tail down and throttle up to 1.4 ata smooth but quickly.

Then push the stick forward to neutral at 110kmh + and let the plane fly itself off the runway. Do not pull at the stick, stabilize it until speed is well above 200kmh and then start climbing...

It is pretty realistic, actually, as it is exactly like what Eric Brunotte (WWII Bf-109 pilot) explained in his interview with Yo-Yo...

Thanks for the info. In that case, Kudos to ED :thumbup:

Has anyone managed to take off by putting the tail up ? I never seem to control it once the tailwheel lifts off the ground and end up crashing.

I only need diff. brakes when I land with the tail wheel unlocked (and then I use them very carefully). Yes, I need rudder to compensate but without crosswind I usually don't use differential braking for that unless I make a mistake on the approach or want to stop quickly. It's way easier to tap the brakes individually than together :dunno:

 

Anyway this thread is about take off in the Bf 109^^

Trying to land the bird with an unlock tailwheel :) You Sir are looking for troubles ?

here is a nice short excerpt from an actual BF 109 pilot about landing :

https://youtu.be/IbeRn1rgoIo?t=12m00s

The safe method relies on 3 points landing.

The (locked) tailwheel being the angular stone of the whole operation.

I, on the other hand, think that the rudders have still some great control effectiveness on touch down at around 180 / 170 Km/h in addition you have to use your ailerons to match the correct attitude at the start of the landing roll.

Using break might work but it is not IMO how it should be done.

Has anyone managed to take off by putting the tail up ? I never seem to control it once the tailwheel lifts off the ground and end up crashing.

If you've got rudder pedals, check you have "Auto rudder" and "rudder assist" DEACTIVATED! It messes with the rudder like hell!

Trim at least "1" forward.

Full right rudder and adjust rudder during take off run as necessary. Stick full aft position. Set throttle to 1.2 ATA careful not to go higher than 1.4ATA! Wait until 110-120kph, push the stick slowly forward until the tail lifts up and adjust forward pressure on the stick to keep it level. You have to push a bit forward of neutral position to keep the tail up, but careful not to dip the nose. Wait until it fly's itself of the runway at about 180-220 kph and beware NOT to pull back too early (min 220kph) to avoid stalling and rolling left into the ground as a result.

You need to anticipate the left and right swerve with the rudder, if you react just a bit too late your doomed. That is the tricky part, where you need to practice.

You need to find the right timing to lift the tail late enough to have rudder authority, yet early enough to not lift off while still around stall speed, as you would immediately stall and roll left, crashing into the ground.

Ok thanks, I need to get some rudder pedals then. Been trying with just the twist on the x52, but I end up overcompensating.

Try to begin your take off run with full right rudder - then as soon as the plane tries to go right let go off it and just use subtle and short "bursts" of rudder to correct your path.

With a bit of practice you should also be able to do it with a twiststick - although pedals are much more comfortable when it comes to handling warbirds :)

Ok thanks, I need to get some rudder pedals then. Been trying with just the twist on the x52, but I end up overcompensating.

Definitely! The twist is by no means precise enough to control a tail dragger.

Well, you can adopt, but it is easier to use pedals... Just remember to deactivate the rudder assist!!!

Definitely! The twist is by no means precise enough to control a tail dragger.

Well, you can adopt, but it is easier to use pedals... Just remember to deactivate the rudder assist!!!

Pfft. While rudders are clearly better, a twist stick is fine for pretty much all the airplanes (choppers are another matter).

I will second the notion to turn off rudder and take off assist. I understand what they're intended for, but I find them a massive hindrance as they mask what you do and generally get in the way of your learning and understanding how to take off in a tail dragger.

Pfft. While rudders are clearly better, a twist stick is fine for pretty much all the airplanes (choppers are another matter).

 

I will second the notion to turn off rudder and take off assist. I understand what they're intended for, but I find them a massive hindrance as they mask what you do and generally get in the way of your learning and understanding how to take off in a tail dragger.

What I said: it's easier with rudders. :D

Would it be easier with twist sticks modern fighter jets would have twist sticks rather than pedals I guess.

As far as my experience with the X52 goes, you tend to twist the stick a tiny bit as soon as you move the stick itself a bit on the other axis. Cost a lot of concentration when you need to focus elsewhere.

I know people can even fly and take off with keyboard controls, yet I would recommend rudders when asked.

It is a good investment, anyway. Helps with ALL plane after a moment of getting used to it and are very good for helicopters.

I recommend to take some with rudder AND brake axis on the footpedals.

High end are rudders like the MFG Crosswind, if you are on a budget, I recommend the Saitek pro flight or the pro flight combat rudder pedals.

The pro flight are more authentic to the German prop planes, the combat closer to modern jet aircraft and helicopters.

The difference is: pro flight - foot rests completely on the pedal, combat - foot rests on the floor/footrest and only the toes/foot tips move the pedals. Both have brakes. Mechanic is more or less the same.

Actually, and given the fact that most rudder sets used for PC-based flight simulation are poor in reproducing how a real rudder behaves in a real, non FBW aircraft, requiring sometimes very high forces, I ( who recently sold my x55 and saitek rudder pedals ) who am now using my old / partly broken x52 Pro, am very glad with the twist grip, and think that for real pilots, specially those with less experience, the use of cheap simulation rudder devices can be detrimental to their rudder use skills.

This is particularly true of those of us who fly gliders IRL ( I do... ) because the use of the rudder is mandatory, while many other GA aircraft are practically feet-on-floor other than during takeoff and landing...

I noticed that during long periods away from my glider and real flying, and having ( intensively ) used simulators, my feet were .... dead whenever I was flying again for real. After 2 or three flights it returns to normal, but, in the sim hardware the absence of proper force feedback, specially on this axis which IRL can be so heavy ( and i certainly was on most ww2 birds... ) can create bad habits.

Having to twist the joystick actually gives you a better understanding and training of how and when to use the rudder IMO...

Try the MFG Crosswinds then with full spring force... They are the best I found since today as there are virtually no affordable force feedback rudders.

If you get bored of the normal take-off, try a heavy crosswind from the left ;) Took me about 10 attempts before I nailed this one =)

_STfWAUAENQ

No wonder there were many pilot deaths in learning to fly the 109 in WWII! Either you're dead or you survived. Well at least we've got a simulator! :D