What Happened To The Study Sims ?

I appreciate this post may upset many of the Flamming Cliffs brigade, but I am sad to see so much effort by ED with the 'watered down aircraft' fixes currently being produced, looking at the 1.2.8 change log.

 

I recall during the A-10C Warthog and Ka-50 Black Shark era, the website almost came to a halt with all the potential customers waiting to download the next patch. Most of the expert users such as Warrior, Fish etc seem to have disappeared or post very infrequently (check out the various tutorials to see who I am talking about).

 

I always regarded ED as the PMDG of the Combat Sim world in their expertise in producing quality simulations, but this seems to have degraded into mass market arcade type simulations such as Flamming Cliffs addons.

 

Again sorry if this upsets the non study sim enthusiasts but ED had a unique thing going with A-10c and Ka-50 with a great reputation for quality, which sadly seems to be moving in the direction of arcade simulations of the past.

 

Glen

It takes too long to make a single study sim at the detail required in the current age. Back in the day, they did not have to deal with so much other issues...graphics, modules etc.

 

The FC series (my personal favourite) is a relatively faster output line which can generate much needed revenue for the study sims.

 

BTW...you are missing the Huey, Mi-8 and mustang. Those are study sims too.

This has all been hashed out many times before... The amount of money obtained from FC is far and above more than the "Study sims" so yes after a fashion, FC funds our study sims...

 

And as stated above, MI-8, Huey and the Mustang are all study sims.. And many more to come.. But remember that the high fidelity of the study sim is a dual edged sword as it takes a LOT longer to pump those out so if you demand a study sim then you better be able to wait for them...

There is another way to look at it. The F15c will have an advanced flight model which will make a massive difference. In fact it will probably be the first FM produced for a home computer to this level for any jet capable of Mach 2+. It will be a completely new experience for me and just maintaining a connection with a tanker will require new skill levels that im really looking forward to. I love the full fidelity simulations, I am capable with the A10c the Ka50 and the P51 and to have the full capacity interactive cockpit is the ultimate for a simulator lover. But I believe there is a strong possibility that the F15c will become a fully fledged DCS level module in the future as has been mentioned. So I view this as another step to that ultimate. The Su25 and Su25T now have AFM and 6dof cockpit and I won't rule out the possibility of these having fully interactive cockpits in the future. Well I am an optimist. We have a number of 3rd party developers producing DCS level sims so I think the standards are still being maintained personally.

Well, the Mig-21 is Mach 2 capable, and everything is finished except for the final testing and such.

Flaming Cliffs isn't an arcade game. An example of a good arcade styled game would be the older Ace Combat titles. Anyone, regardless of aircraft knowledge, should be able to discern the difference between the two. FC is certainly a simulator, even if the systems are simplified.

 

Peronsally I would much prefer more FC level aircraft. They take a while to learn, give a superb impression of flight (especially with the AFM) and are realistic enough to simulate realistic combat operations. In particular, I like modern 80-2000s fighter/attack aircraft and would like some multiroles. I am glad that DCS: WWII and the likes is in the works but I would much prefer more modern airframes opposed to WWII planes or trainers/transport helicopters which seem to be what third party developers are focusing on. Give me an FC3 level Jaguar and F-16 and I will buy them.

flaming cliffs pays for the study sims, savvy?

 

This.

I always regarded ED as the PMDG of the Combat Sim world in their expertise in producing quality simulations, but this seems to have degraded into mass market arcade type simulations such as Flamming Cliffs addons.

You'd be wrong. Matt posted the very reasoning for even releasing FC3 (and for killing off the FC series at the same time). Why? Study sims was part of it.

 

Again sorry if this upsets the non study sim enthusiasts but ED had a unique thing going with A-10c and Ka-50 with a great reputation for quality, which sadly seems to be moving in the direction of arcade simulations of the past.

 

Glen

Where are the non study sim enthusiasts? Look at what has been happening to FC3 full AFM integration. Talk about potential systems intergration for the AFM fighters. You're misunderstanding. The FC3 crowd isn't just survey sim fans. They're the study sim fighter people. As awesome as the A-10 is, it's not a F-15, not even a FC3 level one. There is no option for fighters beyond FC3 as much as the fighter pilots want DCS F-15/Su-27.

 

ED is working on the F-18 which will be the most complex aircraft yet, and in the meantime they've brought in 3rd parties to fill in the gaps and boost product count to levels they could never reach alone. The study sim era wasn't the A-10 and Ka-50. It's not even here yet.

I own bothe the FC3 aircraft as well as the study sim titles like A-10C, KA-50, UH-1, MI-8 and P-51D.

 

Some days I want to go deep, while at other days I just want pure simple fights.

 

One kind of detail does not rule out the other.

 

Study sims simply takes awfull longer time to develope than the much simpler aircraft.

 

FinnJ

You'd be wrong. Matt posted the very reasoning for even releasing FC3 (and for killing off the FC series at the same time). Why? Study sims was part of it.

 

Where are the non study sim enthusiasts? Look at what has been happening to FC3 full AFM integration. Talk about potential systems intergration for the AFM fighters. You're misunderstanding. The FC3 crowd isn't just survey sim fans. They're the study sim fighter people. As awesome as the A-10 is, it's not a F-15, not even a FC3 level one. There is no option for fighters beyond FC3 as much as the fighter pilots want DCS F-15/Su-27.

 

ED is working on the F-18 which will be the most complex aircraft yet, and in the meantime they've brought in 3rd parties to fill in the gaps and boost product count to levels they could never reach alone. The study sim era wasn't the A-10 and Ka-50. It's not even here yet.

 

I see where you are going with your thought process, but saying A-10, Black Shark, MI-8 and P-51 aren't study sims is incorrect and misleading... They absolutely ARE study sims.. Now if you want to say that they aren't advanced, high-performance supersonic study sims.. Then you are absolutely correct... And ED is working hard on providing one of those very soon with the F-18.. And Leathernecks will be providing one with the Mig-21...

:thumbup:

I see where you are going with your thought process, but saying A-10, Black Shark, MI-8 and P-51 aren't study sims is incorrect and misleading... They absolutely ARE study sims.. Now if you want to say that they aren't advanced, high-performance supersonic study sims.. Then you are absolutely correct... And ED is working hard on providing one of those very soon with the F-18.. And Leathernecks will be providing one with the Mig-21...

:thumbup:

 

Reread his post in context with the original post.

I see where you are going with your thought process, but saying A-10, Black Shark, MI-8 and P-51 aren't study sims is incorrect and misleading... They absolutely ARE study sims.. Now if you want to say that they aren't advanced, high-performance supersonic study sims.. Then you are absolutely correct... And ED is working hard on providing one of those very soon with the F-18.. And Leathernecks will be providing one with the Mig-21...

:thumbup:

I must not have been clear. I didn't say the A-10 etc were not study sims. I said that FC3 was made because ED wants to focus on study sims.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=93704

 

And that FC3 players want study sims as much as the A-10 players. In fact, in a lot of cases they are the same people (I own everything except the Mi-8 ).

And that FC3 players want study sims as much as the A-10 players. In fact, in a lot of cases they are the same people (I own everything except the Mi-8 ).

 

I am not opposed to the study sim detail, but I won't run out to buy every aircraft (time constraints ect.). As mentioned, I would much prefer more FC3 level F/A-18s, MIG-29Ks, F-16Cs, Mirage 2000s, F-1s and Su-17s. There are plenty of people who prefer the FC3 level of detail.

For me the FC3 updates are simple steps to provide a full featured planes in future.

 

From my point of view they are trying to achieve some kind of middle ground where you have FC level of aircrafts that have all the features except click-able cockpits and full featured systems. And then you have a single purchase packages which will upgrade your plane to next level.

 

Developing the systems for F-18 is the key I suppose as then they will be able to implement the same systems in the FC aircrafts with less effort. The AFMs will be done by that point and 3D cockpits are on the way also...

I recall during the A-10C Warthog and Ka-50 Black Shark era, the website almost came to a halt with all the potential customers waiting to download the next patch.

 

Infrastructure has been expanded and relocated since then.

 

but this seems to have degraded into mass market arcade type simulations such as Flamming Cliffs addons.

 

You should see the tickets from people saying FC is too complicated from people that wanted a modern War Thunder. :D

 

Again sorry if this upsets the non study sim enthusiasts but ED had a unique thing going with A-10c and Ka-50 with a great reputation for quality, which sadly seems to be moving in the direction of arcade simulations of the past.

 

I've had multiple actual Vietnam Huey pilots in support writing tickets simply to give thanks for the most realistic simulation of that bird ever, putting them right back into their younger days of service. There is also the P-51D and Mi-8. Saying that there's no high-fidelity modules happening is therefore a bit weird, since the majority of modules released are precisely that - full study sims. :)

 

The "problem", if such a thing exists, is that simulations in the style of Ka-50 and A-10C take a LOT of time to make. In the case of the F-18C, we're suddenly also dealing with A2A-radar at that level of fidelty, including ground mapping and all of that jazz. That's a lot of new stuff that has to happen. Now recall that the A-10C and Ka-50 both took a LONG time to make.

I appreciate this post may upset many of the Flamming Cliffs brigade, but I am sad to see so much effort by ED with the 'watered down aircraft' fixes currently being produced, looking at the 1.2.8 change log.

 

I recall during the A-10C Warthog and Ka-50 Black Shark era, the website almost came to a halt with all the potential customers waiting to download the next patch. Most of the expert users such as Warrior, Fish etc seem to have disappeared or post very infrequently (check out the various tutorials to see who I am talking about).

 

I always regarded ED as the PMDG of the Combat Sim world in their expertise in producing quality simulations, but this seems to have degraded into mass market arcade type simulations such as Flamming Cliffs addons.

 

Again sorry if this upsets the non study sim enthusiasts but ED had a unique thing going with A-10c and Ka-50 with a great reputation for quality, which sadly seems to be moving in the direction of arcade simulations of the past.

 

Glen

 

sorry glen your all out of whack in this post. :>(

a little corrections.....

6 study sims

7 simplified sims

 

Then we have the F-18, Hawk & AH-1G that are likely to release before our children grow up, go to college, graduate, work and finally retire, giving

 

9 study sims

7 simplified sims

 

I also believe that the WWII era aircraft like the FW-190 and ME-262 will be at least P-51 fidelity making

 

11 study sims

7 simplified sims

 

ED F/A-18C + VEAO Bae Hawk + Belsimtek AH-1G Cobra / F-86E Sabre + Coretex F/A-18E + RAZBAM T-2 / Mirage 2000C + L-39 Albatros + AvioDev C101 (In no put all of them)

 

15 study sims

7 simplified sims

 

ED FW-190D-9 + RRG Studios P-47, Spitfire XI, Bf-109K-4, Me-262

 

20 Study Sims + 2 if Belsimtek aprove F-15C Study sim and Su-27S

7 simplified sims

Coretex's F/A-18E cannot be a study level sim based on the nature of information that would be required to make it so; they have insofar admitted this to be the case previously.

 

Work on the FC-level aircraft clearly progresses as means to bring them to a higher standard of precision; the F-15's fully-click capable cockpit (as evidenced by Skatezilla's research) shows the position. Same with the other FC types- no one is going to take the time to remodel them in 6DOF and not do the animations and extensions while they're in there, meaning that the foundation is in place.

Coretex's F/A-18E cannot be a study level sim based on the nature of information that would be required to make it so; they have insofar admitted this to be the case previously.

 

Are you sure of them? ;)

If you want to count modules that don't exist, what difference does it make what column you put them in?

Are you sure of them? ;)

 

Have they suddenly received official, yet unannounced, support from the United States Navy or Boeing? Have they received access to something more than I can gather from a perusal of Avialogs? Are they even going to be be capable of producing all of the implementations of air to air, or air to ground, modes as described in the basic NATOPS?

 

That's what constitutes a study sim.

Here is my take on why FC3 funds the study sims: there is no fighter jet study sim in DCS. I keep waiting and waiting for one, even a Mig-21 will be sweet. I can't buy it if it's not for sale.

Where are the non study sim enthusiasts? Look at what has been happening to FC3 full AFM integration. Talk about potential systems intergration for the AFM fighters. You're misunderstanding. The FC3 crowd isn't just survey sim fans. They're the study sim fighter people. As awesome as the A-10 is, it's not a F-15, not even a FC3 level one. There is no option for fighters beyond FC3 as much as the fighter pilots want DCS F-15/Su-27.

 

ED is working on the F-18 which will be the most complex aircraft yet, and in the meantime they've brought in 3rd parties to fill in the gaps and boost product count to levels they could never reach alone. The study sim era wasn't the A-10 and Ka-50. It's not even here yet.

 

Cannot agree more. Well said.:thumbup:

 

Rounds and rounds of sales, and yet I cannot see the study-sim module that I would love to buy. I have my credit card ready, and yet I cannot find the right place to key the numbers in. I feel sad. :cry:

Edited March 27, 2014 by blackbelter

sorry glen your all out of whack in this post. :>(

 

 

I quite agree, good points made by most answers

 

Thanks for your putting me straight :smilewink: