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Old 01-15-2019, 06:37 PM   #21
Yo-Yo
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Originally Posted by Vatikus View Post
Thank you Yo-Yo for taking time... I am sure you know that kinematics of K elevator is different, but anyways.. even if we ignore this, the main question in this topic is rather about virtual pilot's ability for achieving rate of flight stick deflection - at what threshold stick force rate cannot be matched with our joystick's? The question which follows is, how come only WW2 birds have such pilot model while jet do not in DCS? I can pull instant 18kg (max pull) in DCS F18.
If you think that there is a different equation than Archimed invented b1/b2 = f2/f1 or you can extend the 109 cockpit space for K...
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Old 01-16-2019, 02:08 AM   #22
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Default Damping versus cutting

I allways liked the damping method over the current cutting method of the stick forces.
But I was in the minority.

I know the reasons why people were against it, it doesnt have to be said again.

I just had a better feeling with the plane, as with active stick (not crazy active, just small probing) you felt how much you were dampened, and it gave me feedback about speed aswell.

Havent flown the bird much after the change, just cant get the feeling of alive plane.


I wish we could choose between the methods. thats all.

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Old 01-21-2019, 10:04 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
If you think that there is a different equation than Archimed invented b1/b2 = f2/f1 or you can extend the 109 cockpit space for K...
Hmm.. might be misunderstanding here... we are talking about pitch axis of flight stick (enough space there). In F18 when pilot pulls max deflection the force to hold that position is around 18daN for the pilot. As this can be done w/o any constraints in DCS, my question was then, if virtual pilot is the same in both cases (109 and 18 (I am not touching FC3 planes here)), what is the force when virtual pilot cannot do that and starts lagging behind our physical joystick?
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:09 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vatikus View Post
Hmm.. might be misunderstanding here... we are talking about pitch axis of flight stick (enough space there). In F18 when pilot pulls max deflection the force to hold that position is around 18daN for the pilot. As this can be done w/o any constraints in DCS, my question was then, if virtual pilot is the same in both cases (109 and 18 (I am not touching FC3 planes here)), what is the force when virtual pilot cannot do that and starts lagging behind our physical joystick?

I don´t quite get you - you can´t compare a modern aircraft like F-18 with the 109 in regards of force needed to deflect the stick.
There is so much technology and hydraulics to help in modern aircraft which weren´t present in planes like the 109.


Or do you think about something else?
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:13 AM   #25
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I don´t quite get you - you can´t compare a modern aircraft like F-18 with the 109 in regards of force needed to deflect the stick.
There is so much technology and hydraulics to help in modern aircraft which weren´t present in planes like the 109.
We are talking about only the flight stick force.. not the actual forces on elevator, etc. Pilot interface only. And since real F18 spring is set to the force I've mentioned in its max deflection it is a valid metric in DCS virtual pilot strength.


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I allways liked the damping method over the current cutting method of the stick forces.
But I was in the minority.
I would prefer that option as well, Voodooman.
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Old 02-23-2019, 05:26 AM   #26
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Who can read - will read. Who can understand - will understand.
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

That's all I can say.
doesnt answer my question though unfortunately. two hands vs, 1hand flying. do we always fly with 1hand?
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:28 PM   #27
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doesnt answer my question though unfortunately. two hands vs, 1hand flying. do we always fly with 1hand?
The following data for the Bf 109 E is extracted from a British test document "Messerschmitt Me 109 Handling and Manoeuverability Tests by the Ministry of Supply. September 1940" (via Olivier 'butch2k' at the allaboutwarfare forum) "...More detailed aileron tests (measurement of stick forces and time to bank) were made.. These tests showed that although the Me 109 ailerons felt much heavier than those of the Spitfire at speeds between 300mph (483kph) and 400mph (644kph), the a/c could be made to bank at about the same rate as the Spitfire at these high speeds. The more ‘solid' feel of the Me 109 ailerons at high airspeeds is attributed to the smaller stick travel (± 4 in. compared to ± 8 in. on the Spitfire), fairly rigid control circuit, and partly to the awkward seating position of the pilot...at 400mph (644kph) the Me 109 pilot, pushing sideways with all his strength, can only apply about 1/5 aileron, thereby banking 45 deg. in about 4 secs.; on the Spitfire also, only 1/5 aileron can be applied at 400mph, and again the time to 45 deg. bank is about 4 secs..."
The issue for the pilots was the cramped cockpit, not the stick forces.. ED should also model the cramped 109's cockpit, right?
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:42 PM   #28
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dont know, i dont necessarily think that our pilot must be too weak(although its something entirely different to look at test results of pilots pulling a stick while in a relaxed state, and the same guy fighting for his life), but that the logic of when the pilot begins/and stops to use his 2nd hand is flawed.

how should this algorithm know at what point i do intend to use the 2nd hand? when i reach a certain deflection? if thats the case, than thats already wrong. a real pilot anticipates and uses his 2nd hand already in advance as he knows that he's planning a hard turn the next seond.

furthermore how should this algorithm know, that i want to keep my 2nd hand on the stick if i move it back to center? lets assume im in siccors with a bandit..in this situation, while the stick will travel quite often in/ or close to center position, the next second i will need all the strenght i have. a real pilot does not take his left hand then back to the throttle.



considering such situations, the 1hand/2hand logic is only getting worse, when it would be dependent on speed or time(deflection the stick for x seconds until the second hand is used), and even worse, all 3 together.


maybe the 109 pilot should fly with 2hands all the time, or at the very least we should be able to decide when to switch between 1 and 2hand flying. give us a button that toggles the 2nd hand. if both hands are on the stick, you cant adjust throttle anymore.

Last edited by birdstrike; 03-08-2019 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:48 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
dont know, i dont necessarily think that our pilot must be too weak(although its something entirely different to look at test results of pilots pulling a stick while in a relaxed state, and the same guy fighting for his life), but that the logic of when the pilot begins/and stops to use his 2nd hand is flawed.

how should this algorithm know at what point i do intend to use the 2nd hand? when i reach a certain deflection? if thats the case, than thats already wrong. a real pilot anticipates and uses his 2nd hand already in advance as he knows that he's planning a hard turn the next seond.

furthermore how should this algorithm know, that i want to keep my 2nd hand on the stick if i move it back to center? lets assume im in siccors with a bandit..in this situation, while the stick will travel quite often in/ or close to center position, the next second i will need all the strenght i have. a real pilot does not take his left hand then back to the throttle.



considering such situations, the 1hand/2hand logic is only getting worse, when it would be dependent on speed or time(deflection the stick for x seconds until the second hand is used), and even worse, all 3 together.


maybe the 109 pilot should fly with 2hands all the time, or at the very least we should be able to decide when to switch between 1 and 2hand flying. give us a button that toggles the 2nd hand. if both hands are on the stick, you cant adjust throttle anymore.
This could be a solution.. as crazy as the stick forces are currently implemented..
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Old 03-30-2019, 12:23 PM   #30
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i remember this post...it still doesnt answer my questions though about 1 and 2 hands on the stick.

i would like to get an answer about that, as in the 109, when you're flying lets say 500kph or higher, and begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

now when this happens, the 109 begins a sharp turn, and mostly too sharp to keep that turn you wanted, so you have to reduce your pull on the stick slightly to avoid a blackout or at least a massive energy loss, ending with a stall.

...now we are still at high speeds....

if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again...now you only wanted to reduce that turn by a small margin, to avoid a blackout or stall, but instead the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn again...

but you wanted to turn hard, so you decide to pull back on the stick again...this again seems to take sometimes several seconds until the plane turns hard...

at least by the feels of it, it seems that the pilot does indeed switch between 1 and 2 hand flying on the stick in the 109....
Sounds to me like your moving YOUR stick around too much and getting out of sync with the ingame controls. I've been flying the 109 quite a bit lately for aerobatics, even dogfighting with a friend, and have had no issues with fine control, or with the X55 I used to use. Imo, it's being overexcitable that's causing the problem
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